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Author Topic: fuel for LA 46  (Read 3094 times)

Offline Matt Colan

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fuel for LA 46
« on: August 30, 2013, 12:56:23 PM »
I went to the hobby shop near school last week and accidentally bought the wrong fuel I had been using.  The fuel I bought is 15% Nitro, and 18% all synthetic. Would this fuel be ok to use in the hot Florida weather for the LA 46 or should I take it back and get 10-18 (which is 80% synthetic, 20% castor) which is what I had been using down here.

Thanks!
Matt Colan

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 07:09:16 PM »
Speaking for myself, I'd take it back if that was an option.  8)
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 09:43:00 PM »
Speaking for myself, I'd take it back if that was an option.  8)

That's what I was thinking too. I wanted some 15% because Florida this time of year sucks to try and fly in (for me anyway coming from the North) and I wanted to try it just to see what would happen. Never bothered to read the oil content, just saw 15% and got it  :P

Matt Colan

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2013, 04:47:47 PM »
I went to the hobby shop near school last week and accidentally bought the wrong fuel I had been using.  The fuel I bought is 15% Nitro, and 18% all synthetic. Would this fuel be ok to use in the hot Florida weather for the LA 46 or should I take it back and get 10-18 (which is 80% synthetic, 20% castor) which is what I had been using down here.

Thanks!

I've often thought of buying 15% nitro all synth fuel then adding 8 oz. of castor, I think it should work, but as is no.

Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 11:10:55 AM »
Why not run it and see if it works?  It might run better with all syntthetic lube.  It might not make any difference.  Does OS insist on castor oil?  I don't think you will fry the motor and you might find out something interesting.

Lubricant technology is changing as we speak.  There are advantages to synthetic oil as well.  No castor gumming, varnish, smell on your clothes etc. I don't hear anybody bragging about putting organic multi grade lubricants in their car, except for air cooled VWs. 



 

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 02:23:35 PM »
from my experience with the LA 46,, the cstor is pretty important,, it helps give the quality of run you want for stunt,, I use 10% 22% ( 50-50 castor synth)
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Offline Reptoid

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 07:58:29 PM »

Lubricant technology is changing as we speak.  There are advantages to synthetic oil as well.  No castor gumming, varnish, smell on your clothes etc. I don't hear anybody bragging about putting organic multi grade lubricants in their car, except for air cooled VWs. 

[/quote]
Castor is a vegetable oil and was never a good oil for long term crankcase applications. In spite of all the new synthetic technology, all of the worlds top race teams running two strokes still use castor or castor/synthetic blends; that includes motorcycles, go-karts, outboards, speedway motorcycles (4-stroke, but total loss oiling system) and the top F2D combat team fliers. Why? because it gives the best protection under high heat/high load conditions. H^^
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 10:50:45 PM »
Lubricant technology is changing as we speak.  There are advantages to synthetic oil as well.  No castor gumming, varnish, smell on your clothes etc. I don't hear anybody bragging about putting organic multi grade lubricants in their car, except for air cooled VWs. 


Castor is a vegetable oil and was never a good oil for long term crankcase applications. In spite of all the new synthetic technology, all of the worlds top race teams running two strokes still use castor or castor/synthetic blends; that includes motorcycles, go-karts, outboards, speedway motorcycles (4-stroke, but total loss oiling system) and the top F2D combat team fliers. Why? because it gives the best protection under high heat/high load conditions. H^^
from my conversations with others,, what I take away is that Castor is more about heat control than lubrication as such,, I know that when my motor wants to pick up several hundred rpm in flight midway,, an additional percent of castor seems to help mitigate the problem,,
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Offline Reptoid

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2013, 12:11:37 AM »
from my conversations with others,, what I take away is that Castor is more about heat control than lubrication as such,, I know that when my motor wants to pick up several hundred rpm in flight midway,, an additional percent of castor seems to help mitigate the problem,,
      It does indeed have a temperature controlling effect mostly because it does not burn at all at normal engine temperatures and it takes alot of heat with it when it is exhausted. It is also an amazing high temperature-high film strength lubricant because as the temperature goes up it polymerizes and becomes thicker with even higher film strength. That is good from the lubrication side and a drawback from the cleanliness side. If you run model engines on the lean side this will show up as brown varnish. A mixture of 1/2 castor and 1/2 synthetic is a pretty decent compromise that will run very clean and still provide nice temp regulation and great lubrication.
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Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2013, 11:03:27 AM »
Lubricant technology is changing as we speak.  There are advantages to synthetic oil as well.  No castor gumming, varnish, smell on your clothes etc. I don't hear anybody bragging about putting organic multi grade lubricants in their car, except for air cooled VWs. 


Castor is a vegetable oil and was never a good oil for long term crankcase applications. In spite of all the new synthetic technology, all of the worlds top race teams running two strokes still use castor or castor/synthetic blends; that includes motorcycles, go-karts, outboards, speedway motorcycles (4-stroke, but total loss oiling system) and the top F2D combat team fliers. Why? because it gives the best protection under high heat/high load conditions. H^^

I never intended to imply that castor was suitable for crankcase applications.  I was trying to state that castor oil was an old technology by relating how synthetics are used in high performance cars.  If all two cycle high performance applications all use castor oil then thats ok.  If there isn't a synthetic oil that meets or exceeds castor oils performance envelope then there will be one available shortly.  I can see the advantage that castor has in being multi viscosity(?) however I would like to point out that there is multi vicosity synthetic two cycle oil available.  Would a stunt application be considered a high heat, high load apllication?

Fair comparisons would be like 22% oil 50/50 versus 22% all synthetic, because I am sure that the percentage is helping with heat transfer.

I would like to see some data on current synthetics versus castor.  But whatever works for you is fine.  Certainly if someone has a reworked motor they should run what the builder tells them to run.


   

Offline Reptoid

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2013, 12:12:09 PM »
I would like to see some data on current synthetics versus castor.  But whatever works for you is fine.  Certainly if someone has a reworked motor they should run what the builder tells them to run.

[/quote]
     I would never get in a "what's the best oil" debate. I was just posting the data so folks can understand why castor does what it does.
     The data I posted is current. The very latest two-stroke racing oils from Maxima, Castrol, Silkolene (Fuchs), Yamalube, and Repsol use varying combinations of Castor and Ester based synthetic oils. There are some Ester based synthetics that are supposed to be superior to the others but they are very expensive. Also, Ester based oils do not play well with Methanol and Nitro so are used for gasoline fueled applications in two strokes.

As for the comparison with 22% 50-50 versus 22% synthetic, there have been a lot of tests run and the results are generally: When the engine is four-stroking or two-four and even in a very wet two-stroke, the head temps will be the same. When you start to approach lean-best power the head temp with all synthetic will rise considerably faster than the 50-50 and if you go over the top until it sags badly there will be a large difference in the head temp. The chances of detonation are also greatly increased. (that phenomenon that makes the head & top of the piston look like they got sand blasted) H^^
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Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 02:41:55 PM »
I would like to see some data on current synthetics versus castor.  But whatever works for you is fine.  Certainly if someone has a reworked motor they should run what the builder tells them to run.


     I would never get in a "what's the best oil" debate. I was just posting the data so folks can understand why castor does what it does.
     The data I posted is current. The very latest two-stroke racing oils from Maxima, Castrol, Silkolene (Fuchs), Yamalube, and Repsol use varying combinations of Castor and Ester based synthetic oils. There are some Ester based synthetics that are supposed to be superior to the others but they are very expensive. Also, Ester based oils do not play well with Methanol and Nitro so are used for gasoline fueled applications in two strokes.

As for the comparison with 22% 50-50 versus 22% synthetic, there have been a lot of tests run and the results are generally: When the engine is four-stroking or two-four and even in a very wet two-stroke, the head temps will be the same. When you start to approach lean-best power the head temp with all synthetic will rise considerably faster than the 50-50 and if you go over the top until it sags badly there will be a large difference in the head temp. The chances of detonation are also greatly increased. (that phenomenon that makes the head & top of the piston look like they got sand blasted) H^^

Ok.  Good to know.  Doing some research indicates that the Muli Viscosity Oil that I speak of (Cool Power MV) may not be truly Multi Viscosity but a combination of their thin synthetic oil used in the helicopter fuel and their thicker aircraft synthetic oil.  This info is on the website.  So this may not be a big breakthrough.  Looks like castor may be the only true Multi Viscosity 2 cycle oil after all.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 02:59:07 PM by Joseph Lijoi »

Offline Reptoid

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 05:16:45 PM »
Ok.  Good to know.  Doing some research indicates that the Muli Viscosity Oil that I speak of (Cool Power MV) may not be truly Multi Viscosity but a combination of their thin synthetic oil used in the helicopter fuel and their thicker aircraft synthetic oil.  This info is on the website.  So this may not be a big breakthrough.  Looks like castor may be the only true Multi Viscosity 2 cycle oil after all.
The synthetics can and are made to be multi-vis. The problem in our application is the flash point which is usually 100-150 degrees lower than castor so when the temp gets to where the synthetic starts to burn, the castor is still polymerizing, gaining viscosity, and carrying away heat in the exhaust. H^^
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Offline phil c

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 06:13:31 PM »
F2D flyers use 20% castor because the rules require it.  No synthetic at all.  It is the pits.  F2D motors start to get varnished up after 1-2 runs.  You get 1 good run, maybe a second one in cool weather, and then it's all downhill.  Many flyers fllush the engines with kerosene or a run with all synthetic oil to get rid of the varnish.



CL flying puts a lot of load on bearings and risk of overheating, since people don't usually have any kind of shutoff.  So for general use anywhere from~5% castor to up to 17% plus synthetic to bring the total oil up to 22% or more is a good idea.  For most stunt engines, as somebody else said, changing the amount of castor affects the 4/2 break and how smoothly the engine runs in a 4 stroke. 

Side story- one of my buddies had a pretty good career in Foxberg racing. He always used 17% castor 8% synthetic.  For racing more oil caused the motor to overheat.   
phil Cartier

Offline dave siegler

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 06:21:29 PM »
and the top F2D combat team fliers. Why? because it gives the best protection under high heat/high load conditions. H^^

In F2D the fuel is specified to be 20%castor based and 10% nitro.  It eliminates the my oil is better than your oil problem.
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Offline Reptoid

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 08:38:32 PM »
True dat, but most of your flying throughout the year is not in an official FAI sanctioned contest so most do not use straight castor all year. H^^
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Offline Brian Massey

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 10:38:32 PM »
from my experience with the LA 46,, the cstor is pretty important,, it helps give the quality of run you want for stunt,, I use 10% 22% ( 50-50 castor synth)
Ditto. Since I found a source for nitro I've been making my own fuel, but for the LA 46 I mix standard GMA; 10/22 50/50. My oldest LA 46 has about 40 hours of run time. Starts first flip, and sounds/acts just like new. For the price, I just don't see how you can beat it.

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Offline Timothy Payne

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Re: fuel for LA 46
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 07:55:15 PM »
I use Model Technics Contest 10 (10% nitro, 18% EDL (synthetic oil with 20% castor). To this I just add the required amount off castor oil.
IE. To make 25% fuel; 18% + 7% = 25% total. Or (made in 1litre amounts), 70ml castor put in first. Then add to this 930ml of fuel (in two parts (450 + 480 mixed with the castor in two stages to ensure all the oil is well mixed).

Mixing in two halves like this also means you can agitate the mix in a circular motion without using a stirrer!

Nothing like a bit of science to get the old grey matter working:-),


Let me know how you get on,



Tim


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