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Author Topic: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?  (Read 3120 times)

Offline Robin_Holden

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ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« on: September 05, 2009, 11:18:29 AM »
Greetings fellas from the Southern Charente in France. Can I ask for some advice please as to what I should do to modify the steel liner on one of my Enya 35's [ later 5225 series  , not 5224 ] to improve it's 'stunt' performance.

I have a spare liner so may I ask what mods' will improve it's running. I'm not an engineer , just a simple aeromodeller but whatever I am told to do I will follow instructions to the letter !
Do I remove metal from the inlet port maybe ?

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Why do I want to mess around with this engine ? It is not a patch on my Enya 5224 series 35's. It just doesn't want to 4 stroke at anything over around 7,600 rpm and will break into a full 2-stroke runaway so to speak.

Just thought I might experiment with my spare liner.

Kind regards ,

Robin - ex-pat Brit in the Charente full of ex-pat Brits ].   

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 08:11:01 AM »
I would say leave it alone and get more break in time.  Use lower pitch props.  Of course this depends on if it gets tight during the flight or not.  If it gets tight you need more break in as it sounds like it is getting hot.  I have seen Enya take almost a season of flying to get broken in.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 09:20:26 AM »
This may or may not be of any help but I have two of the 5224 35's and surprisingly they have different port timings. One is 60/50 for exhaust/transfer and the other is 65/55 but I've never used either of them so I can't say which has the better timings. What I'd suggest is checking the port timings of your 5224 and comparing it to the 5225. If the 5224 has higher timing then you can file the ports upwards but if the 5224 has the lower timing then the liner could be lowered into the crankcase slightly. The earlier models had both a high and low compression heads but the later one uses shims to adjust compression and had a somewhat looser fit between the piston/liner.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2009, 09:03:45 PM »
HI Robin,

I have an very old Enya 35 5224 that will 4-2 quite well.  It is just broken in it seems (they never wear out! LOL!!) using the small restrictor (#1??), low compression head, hot plug and 5% nitro/29% castor fuel.  Prop is a 10-5 wood cut down from the 12-5 Rev Up surplus props that were widely available some years ago.  Use to use Fox Superfuel (5/29), but I can no longer get it around here......  I have been told by others that those vintage Enyas don't like to 4-2 much, so I am probably just the *Blind Hog* of Enyadom.  ;D  ???

One fellow I know just takes the engines like those and raises the intake around .015-.020 on all of them and they do tend to 4-2 after that with not too much loss of power.  If you are intent on filing that spare liner, I would say to start with .010 and go from there.

Mongo
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Trying to get by

Offline Robin_Holden

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 01:12:27 AM »
Much obliged for the comments fellas ..... I'll try anything , so keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks ,

Robin.

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2009, 09:22:51 PM »
With my two engines, the difference in exhaust port height is .005" giving that 5 degree difference so at that point in the stroke you can say that .001" gives a 1 degree change.

Offline James C. Johnson

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2009, 02:47:43 PM »


All of 5224s needed the smallest venturis for stunt, I ran them on 5% nitro and 29% oil (Fox Super Fuel).. I used the #1 venturi or the #3 with a piece of cork stuffed in it.. it will run surprisingly well with a small opening. I would give it two hours of run time before condemning it.. I have even heard of 3 hours for break in. I always used a TF 10x6.. engine would run with a slight break or a steady run if leaned a little. Great Engine on profiles . Check your fuel..

Jim 

Offline Robin_Holden

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 04:43:02 AM »
Jim , thanks for that.

I'll try all your remedies , much obliged.

Robin.

Offline Jim z

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 04:47:25 PM »
I sent two of my Enya 5224's to Lew Woolard.
Both do a great 4-2-4 run, his price was very
reasonable for his work.

Offline James C. Johnson

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 11:44:32 AM »


What does Lew do to "improve" this already fine engine? Can the same be done to the Enya 45? I read that it only has to change a little in the timing.

Jim

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 09:48:42 PM »
Can the same be done to the Enya 45? I read that it only has to change a little in the timing.
I guess that depends on which 45, the earlier 6001 or the 6002. The 6001 is perfect right out of the box but I didn't like the 6002 at all. The major difference seems to be timings. The 6001 had 66/58 for the exhaust/transfer while the 6002 is 70/60 although crank timings are the same.

Offline Jim z

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2009, 12:50:51 AM »

What does Lew do to "improve" this already fine engine? Can the same be done to the Enya 45? I read that it only has to change a little in the timing.

Jim

 I know Lew had retimed the sleeves,  I believe on one he lowered the sleeve in the case.

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2009, 08:19:10 PM »
Brian-
I am having difficulty figuring out what your numbers 66/58 and 70/60 are referenced to. I understand 140/126 (where I time my OS 40fp's) but unable relate your numbers to something like this. Also, by my calculations .0O5" is very close to 1 degree of piston travel where the exhaust port opens. Would really like to understand your system, it may be better than mine! Thanks, Don

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2009, 08:27:37 PM »
Don
It's just two different ways of saying the same thing. I tend to look at port timings where the opening point is what's important so I'll think of the exhaust as opening 70 degrees BBDC. Naturally this gives a total open time of 140 (unless the engine is Desaxe :)). Also by looking only at the opening times it gives an instant recognition of what the blowdown period is. Other than that, no difference in the ways we do it.

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 10:46:32 AM »
Got it, thanks. 66/58 seems rather odd to me, the other just needs the blowdown reduced.
Don

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 04:28:13 PM »
My Stalker 61 (2-2 version) is within a cat's whisker of the 6001 Enya at 65/58. One of the things I've done is to measure the timings of all my engines, RC and CL, to get some idea of what timings suit different applications and none of the recognised stunt engines has more than 70 (140 :)) for the exhaust. Most RC engines start at around 75 for the exhaust. Surprisingly, the 40/46 VF's fit into the stunt timing group too as does my RE Irvine 40RLS but even more so (and it's a better engine than VF's too :)). Your 40FP's have identical timing to the old Max-H 40S.

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 02:17:37 PM »
Brian,

That's interesting! I generally look at the sleeve timing in terms of °ATDC, since I measure from TDC with a depth vernier caliper, not a degree wheel on the shaft. So, "my" numbers are 180° minus yours. And, for a Fox 35, I like to set up EX-Opens at 115°ATDC, BY-OPens at 120°ATDC. At port closing, same numbers, except as °BTDC.  That's 65/60 in your method.

These numbers still provide the 10° total blowdown, as there's 5° lag at each end of the port period.

ENYAs I've used over many years didn't seem to need much more than a suitable net choke area to do well for stunt. E.g., smallest black plastic drop-in did very nicely, and medium insert wasn't bad..
\BEST\LOU

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 12:27:33 AM »
Lou
Yes, you can certainly check timings with a depth gauge if you know the rod length and have a spreadsheet to handle the maths of rod angularity. Blow down usually refers to just the port open times where the exhaust opens long enough for residual combustion pressure to drop far enough to allow the fresh mixture to start flowing when the transfer opens so in that way of thinking your Foxes would have a blow down of 5 degrees. I guess it's all just in the way we look at things :).

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2009, 12:08:18 AM »
Thanks, Brian,

I have written a speadsheet, presently in MS Excel, that takes measurements of rod length, bore, stroke, piston 'length' crown to skirt, upper port edges (measured from the top edge of the sleeve), and flange top to piston crown at TDC. So, that part of it is in hand. The spreadsheet also alerts if modifications to accomplish the desired timing cause the piston skirt to rise above the exhaust port bottom edge - as sub-piston induction usually does not go well with mufflers and muffler pressure set-ups.

As an exercise, I also worked out a variant that calculated the skewed timings and durations for a DeSaxe layout. It would actually have fit within my basic spreadsheet as another input value, but I didn't bother. No recent engines, to my knowledge, use the DeSaxe layout.

(Refresher for those unfamiliar with it - 'DeSaxe layout' has the cylinder axis offset from the crankshaft axis, usually toward the power stroke side. The idea, intuitively, is that this reduces the rod angle during the power stroke, so there's less side load pressing the piston towards the sleeve, causing more friction and wear.

-(There are other consequences of this layout than rod angle. The timing of port openings is shifted, and the time-duration of 'port open' conditions, power stroke, and bypass flow are all shifted. Several of these shifts seem strange, like where - exactly - IS top dead center? Is it when the  crankpin and the rod are in a perfectly straight line? ...depends on the amount of offset, which side that is on, and the measurements of stroke radius, rod length, etc. ... Does a longer 'time-duration' on the power stroke and exhaust port phase, than the 'time-duration' of the bypass flow phase and port opening/closing help or not? Again, the individual dimensions are needed and the results need study.

-(I don't know why we use the name, 'DeSaxe' for this - possibly some engine inventor by that name either made an engine of this type, or discussed it publicly.

-(A plausible reason that this layout is not in common use is that it simply did not make enough difference to justify the much more complex and demanding machining operations, compared to 'ordinary' engines in which the shaft and cylinder centerlines intersect, at right angles. ... particularly in the days before CNC... ..and now, with CNC available, the same basic reason may still apply - not enough benefit to justify even writing a CAM script to do the CNC.)

Oh, and Brian, about 30 years ago I wrote some stuff for PAMPA Stunt News (may I say that out loud, here? ;) ) in which I described blowdown as you did in your last post. I.e., the lag in shaft degrees between exhaust-opens and bypass-opens (and with a symmetrical engine, port closing times); the time any residual pressure trapped in the combustion chamber has, to vent, before the bypass opens to start the transfer phase.  Some guy from Texas, USA, one George M. Ardritch, Aldred, Aldrich? Uh, yeah, I guess he spelled it "Aldrich," took me to task about that. Publicly... One tends to remember such...

But it matched engine theory I had learned in a school or two, up here in the US of America, anyway: Blowdown is defined, somewhat arbitrarily, as the TOTAL difference between the shaft° durations of exhaust and transfer periods. In a 4-cycle poppet valve engine, the time both valves are open is called 'overlap,' and the lag between exhaust opens and intake opens is largely irrelevant, unless it is insufficient time for exhaust residual pressure to drop to effective zero, allowing the descending piston to draw in the air-fuel charge for the next combustion.

In our two-cycle engines, most of the port open time is overlapped, inherently. At least we have a timed shaft inlet period (which also overlaps with the sleeve porting times) to help make things more efficient. In the old piston-ported sparkers of the 1930's and part of the 1940's, both inlet and sleeve ports were timed symmetrically, and with quite short port-open durations in both shaft degrees and time-duration. The only thing that kept the sparkers of that layout running the right direction was the orientation of the breaker points!

FYI, I studied the actual clock-time duration of similar, high performance, engines to determine a practical 'time duration' for port lag. Engines rated at 18,000 RPM, with a measured dimensional difference in port opening times, suggested the "clock-time" needed to allow residual combustion pressure to drop to insignificant. That time, corrected to shaft° at the RPM of interest, gave me the shaft° lag I needed.

Not knocking, or trying to 'score points' - as I appreciate all constructive additions to what I had already known, and now can learn from. I hope any differences in description are more in the way of same meaning/slightly differing words than getting any of us hung up on the fact that some words (of identical meaning) are actually different words. (I've seen too much of that in too many aspects of life in my brief 70 years aboard planet Earth.)
\BEST\LOU

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: ENYA 35 LINER MODS ?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2009, 08:36:22 AM »
Lou
As far as blow down goes, I'll stick with my (and your original) way of looking at it and it doesn't really matter either way so long as it's understood what's a reasonable figure and how it's determined.

On Desaxe, all original Mercos (29 to 61) used it as did the Fox 35 and maybe some other Foxes although I'm not very familiar with Fox engines. The only modern engine I've run across that used it was an early SC 1.08 so presumably the similar Magnums and ASP had it too.


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