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Author Topic: ST .56 any good?  (Read 2426 times)

Offline Dennis Holler

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ST .56 any good?
« on: March 13, 2011, 11:38:36 AM »
I have a couple of ST .56's and an ST .60 all with RC carbs...but I'm not really into RC...  I assume the ST .60 would be good for Carrier II and maybe stunt without the carb.  What about the two .56's, are they just s little smaller  displacement than the .60 but in the same case or are there more differences, like timing porting etc.  Can I just pull the carb (for stunt), clean em up, maybe replace the bearings and get an appropriate venture and nva and go for it?  I think these all have the double rings and they at least say chromed on the case.

I'm just looking to do some learning, flying and have some fun, but I do understand once one gets "serious" that new engines are probably a must.
I've started plenty...would be nice to finish something!!!

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2011, 01:11:16 PM »
HI Dennis,

The ST .56 works very well for stunt.  The guys ran the .60s instead mainly because it is slightly bigger displacement, but in the same case.  If the .60 you have is the same case as the .56, then you have the "good one".  Don't "waste" it on Carrier! (LOL!)  The .56 will fly most anything you would like to build.  Getting a venturi will be easy.

As far as "getting *serious*", the current World Champion used a lite case ST .60 for his win.  it's all "relative".  Getting good runs with a pipe can be more consistently easier, but the ST .60 can still get the job done as proven by the 2010 WC.  Mostly it is the guy wiggling the handle. ;D  The pipe seems to to do things, easier, but the .60 is still a good stunt engine, just so long out of production!

Big Bear
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Offline Dennis Holler

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2011, 01:38:23 PM »
Thanks Bill  H^^ , That's what I was hoping to hear...guess now I need to determine if these here engines are in good condition.  They sure look like the same exact cases.  The main outward differences I can see are that they have different versions of carbs and the .56 seems to have taller fins on the head, maybe 1/16" taller(or deeper).  The .60 came with the exhaust  shutoff plate where as the .56 doesn't have the mounting hole for the plate... must be older.  Man the .56 I have in my hand seems to have some serious compression, makes me want to bolt it to something and run it.  I have a 12X6 prop that ought to be about right and a couple of gallons of Fox 5% nitro/29% castor fuel.  I suspect that would run them safely.

I can see one of these on  a Sheeks Stuka #^

I also have an ST G21 .40 set up with an aluminum venturi (don't know what size) I think I'm saving that one for the Sheeks FW190 I want to build ;D...
I've started plenty...would be nice to finish something!!!

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2011, 01:48:10 PM »
I think you are good to go, Dennis.  A 12-6 prop should work, probably even bigger with maybe 5 pitch.

For fuel, you can use "regular" stuff, all castor could stick up the ring over time.  Having a ring and ball bearing crankshaft, none of them "need" the 29% castor.  I use Sig Champion 1/2 and 1/2 22% oil, with no problems.  The old iron piston/plain bearing crank engines are safer on the all castor, but the ringed/BB engines don't really need it at all, and can possibly cause stuck rings later on. 

If there is no "gritty" feeling in the bearings, they are probably good to go, too.

Bill
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Offline Dennis Holler

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2011, 04:43:56 PM »
That sounds good, I think I can get Sig Champion fuel at the local shop and I'll save the Fox brew for the Fox's and Mccoy's y1
The .56 feels smooth but the .60 is a little gummed up, I think it needs a crock pot bath.  I'm still waiting for the second .56 to show up.  I'll try to get the .56 started and report back LL~ LL~ LL~
I've started plenty...would be nice to finish something!!!

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2011, 07:53:57 PM »
I'd pull the head and back plate on the .60, throw it in the pot than reassemble with air tool oil.

If the bearings feel smooth, then run it on the bench. y1

Big Bear
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Offline Dennis Holler

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 11:18:47 AM »
Stopped by the local shop and picked up some fuel for the .56, ended up being 15% nitro 18% oil (16% syn and 2% caster)  should I add some more caster or will it be ok for the BB engines as is? %^@ it was either that or 30% nitro  %^@ %^@ I'll try and run it tonight  VD~   Should I let it run rich for a while since its a new to me engine and I've not seen it run (its silky smooth, no klunk at tdc and seems to have great compression) anything else I should watch out for?
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 11:29:39 AM »
My S.T. 56 was strong, but weird!  No matter how you primed it, it would NEVER give a "bump".  Cranking, and it sounded quite dead, until it would suddenly fire and be fine!  Never had another engine that did that.

Floyd
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Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 11:32:36 AM »
Dennis - most of the people I know who use the ST ringed engines use 20 to 23% oil.
Some use 50/50, others prefer more synthetic.

I have been using Brodak 10-23 50/50 and Powermaster 10-22 50/50 in all my ringed and lapped engines without any issues.

Bob Z.

Offline Dennis Holler

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 12:24:58 PM »
So I should add some caster to itto get it closer to 50/50 and that will also take down the overall nitro % a tad which is probably also good..Thanks
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Offline Bootlegger

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2011, 01:01:50 PM »
   Heeeeeeeeeey Dennis I sent ya' a P/M...
8th Air Force Veteran
Gil Causey
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Offline proparc

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2011, 01:25:46 PM »
Flew a St 56 powered Shark,(what haven't I flown) very powerful. Almost to the point of painful. Saito 72 has more grunt-less pain.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2011, 01:40:54 PM »
Dennis - most of the people I know who use the ST ringed engines use 20 to 23% oil.
Some use 50/50, others prefer more synthetic.

I have been using Brodak 10-23 50/50 and Powermaster 10-22 50/50 in all my ringed and lapped engines without any issues.

Bob Z.

Hi Bob,

I agree with your recommendations on the fuel for the ringed engines and posted so above.  ;D  But (a caveat! LOL!!) Tom Lay advises using all castor in his ST rebuilds.  He makes provisions to keep the ring from getting varnished up and stuck.  However, I have always added a tiny bit of synthetic to keep the varnish down, anyway.  I DID find on my first ST G.51 that he did for me (1992! LOL!!) that the all castor (Sig 25% all castor) gave a steadier, more repeatable, engine run.  I have no real clue as to "why" ???  Isn't it true that synthetic can burn off while castor tends to not burn at the same temps?  That is the understanding I have had all these years and is the reason I have been told for using all castor in the soft piston engines.  Less chance of a "melt down", killing all compression.

We only differ in our desires to run more castor in the old, thin cased, iron piston/plain bearing engines.  I know you are very knowledgeable in running engines and would not set the needle too lean.  So engine damage, in your case, would be near impossible.  Those with less experience could possibly get into trouble using all synthetic in their "old" engines.  I just like the "insurance" of basically "all castor-25%-29%" in those.  I do add 1-2 oz. of Klottz to "keep them clean", and it does, but I don't do it with old engines that were run a long time on high content all castor.  That practice will sometimes remove the varnish to the point there is not enough compression left.  A rebuild should probably be done in that case, right?

Also, along that vein, what is your impression of "heat growing" pistons?  I have done it now, twice, and it resulted in engines with a measurable amount of increase in compression.  Both were McCoy Red Heads, neither completely "shot", but the heat treating did increase the compression to a "feelable" amount.

When are expecting to move again?

Thanks!
Bill
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2011, 03:00:36 PM »
Never use all castor in the ST 46 51 or 56 and 60  it will burn, goo, and freeze the ring in the piston groove. You DO NOT need all castor in those type engines and you do not want all castor in them, So use it at your own peril

Regards
Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2011, 03:02:47 PM »

Hi Dennis

This article is pinned at the top, If you ever want to read it it will be there


Plugs? Castor?  Synthetic?  Percentage?

_____________________________________________________________
      I have been asked many times to help explain why we have  so many things that can affect the run quality of Stunt engines. I will touch on a few of them , and hopefully help to eliminate some of these problems . Among them are tanks and fuel systems, glo plugs , fuel ,and overheating
  What are things that make for a  great, or  bad engine run. We see these things most every weekend, and it is  a very big point of frustration to many modelers. We all want our engines to run right, and it is  nice when it goes through the pattern smoothly, coming on and off, exactly when and where you want it.  Unfortunately, a lot of times, they growl , belch, shut off ,seem to have a mind of their own ,and are a total pain to deal with.  One of the biggest causes of this that I have seen is improper fuel.  Fuel is one of the most critical aspects in running model motors.  Use the right fuel and you will probably notice nothing; the wrong fuel will have you grumbling, or worse, will have your motor screaming, belching and running with absolutely no consistency whatsoever.

Most fuels on the market today use a synthetic base and are blended for the R/C sport flier.  These are typically very low on oil content, usually in the 12% through 15% range.  This is never acceptable for our use in C/L Stunt.  There are many reasons but the most important is the fact that we normally do not run our engines in a peaked two cycle, but rather a broad range of four cycle and rich two cycling.  Any time you run with the motor set to come on and off in the maneuvers (like a typical 4-2 break) you are not only asking the fuel to lubricate the motor, it also has to cool the engine.  The only way you can run in a 4-2 is to heat and cool the parts in the combustion chamber very rapidly.  This makes the oil content critical, because it’s the unburned oil that helps carry away the heat.

Years ago, most fuels had only one oil ,castor.  This is still a very good oil with many good but some bad points.  Some of its good points; it carries heat out of the motor and gives a good plating action on all surfaces, especially when they’re hot. It also has tendencies to move toward hot surfaces, helping to protect them.  A few of its bad points; it burns and sticks to the piston sides and the ring groove and all other parts that are hot enough, and will carbonize the chamber. It will stick rings in their grooves, freeze wrist pins and build up ridges on sleeves.  This causes excess friction and heat and will ruin your motor in time.

The alternative to castor is synthetic oil and almost all fuels have these in them; the vast majority has all synthetic.  Virtually all fuel manufactures use one type of synthetic; these are normally polyalkylene glycol based oils.  They are mostly made up of alcohol started linear polymers , of oxypropylene groups.  These are made by several companies and are available in a large range of molecular weights and viscosities.

This group of oils is the modern version of the old Ucon oils and also have good and bad points.  Some of the goods points; they are very good lubes without containing any wax; they have outstanding load carrying capacity, film strength, anti-wear properties, are resistant to sludge formation, and will help keep your engine clean.  The bad points are they give no rust protection by themselves, they don’t plate hot surfaces as well as castor and they burn at high heats.

As you can see, both oils have advantages and disadvantages to them; it’s for these reasons that they work much better blending together than they could ever work alone.  Throughout many years of flying ,testing and other research have proven this to me beyond any doubt; plus you can see this for yourself.  Recently, a friend of mine had a motor that would go into the pattern and lean out and act very inconsistently.  The only change that was made was to substitute one tank of my fuel in the model.  The results were drastically different; the motor now ran very smoothly, going into a two cycle instantly when the nose was raised and back into a four cycle instantly when the plane was leveled.  This was tried back and forth both fuels; his and mine.  The results were  the same every time. I see this type of thing happen much too often, and it is extremely frustrating for Flyers to deal with. They often blame these fuel problems on cooling, cowlings, motors ,fuel filters, and unfortunately some don’t have a clue how to recognize or  solve this problem. This is  a frustration that you can live  without!

I would like to tell you there is one Stunt fuel formula to run in all motors, I said I would like to tell you that…unfortunately this is not the case, and will never be as long as we have such a wide range of motors and running styles.  What I will tell you is a good formula for the most common types of engines.  Make sure you pick a fuel supplier who will give you consistent fuel day to day ,and will blend fuel for your motor needs or has fuel to match your needs.  Stay away from any supplier who will not tell you the oil percentage, or who say one type works for all motors. I see this  much to  often also, It is unfortunate, but a lot of fuel manufactures will try to fool you about the oil and nitro percentage. One trick is to measure the oil by weight and all other ingredients by volume. Doing so, they can claim that the fuel is  for example 18 % oil , when in reality it is only 14.9 % oil content. Using weight one for 1 ingredient and volume on the others does not  equal 100 % . Other things are changing oil types, going to cheaper Nitro’s, and adding in other types of Nitro parrafins.

   So what percentage do you try? For motors like Fox .35s, OS Max 35s or the old McCoy’s and K&B’s, use a fuel with 26 to 28% oil content; preferably half castor and half synthetic, up to 75% castor  is OK. These  motors have very small bearing surfaces, and are subject to much wear and heat, most are all plain bushing motors and most have unbushed rods. They need a lot of  oil  to help cool the engines. Since these motors run hot, they need  extra oil to keep them lubed,clean, and to carry out heat . If you have one of these that is  in very good  shape but, is  just starting to get some brown or black varnish plating on it, the synthetic mix will clean it  up for you, resulting in increased life.  Do not use the synthetic  blend in an old motor that has a lot of time on it with all castor fuels; the synthetic will remove the castor varnish off the piston and sleeve and will in some cases, leave you with the worn-out motor that had to start with.  Also always try to NOT use  prop shaft extensions with these engine, as it adds a  lot of  wear on the crankshaft bearing.

For motors with larger bushings and bushed rods like to OS FP , Magnum GP series, Tower, and  Brodak’s  a 22-25% half-and-half oil mixture works the best.  For S.T. .46 51,and .60s and most all ball bearings Stunt motors, a 23% half blend works best. Again the Synthetic blend will help keep the engine  clean, and insure long life. If you use  all castor in these  types, it can stick the ring in the groove , resulting in poor compression and  shortened engine life. If you have a ringed engine that castor has gummed up badly, most times running the synthetic blend will free the stuck ring, and the engine will  return compression and  power for you.
   The tuned pipe motors like a little more synthetic and I recommend a 15% synthetic, 7% castor blend or a  20% half and half with 1  ounce of Aero-1 fuel supplement. Although many use 1\2 – 1\2  with great success.  This works very well in the  Precision Aero , OPS and Max VF engines,  Super Tigre  Thunder Tiger, AERO TIGER and most all of these type engines..

     Four Strokes engines also like the blend, I have found that a 15 % synthetic – 3% castor blend works well for them, normal oil percentage is  18 to 20 %. This will vary some from engine to engine, but is  a good starting point. Most like 10 to 20 % nitro, going up to 25% to 30% in the hot summer weather. Aero-1 Fuel additive can help 4 strokes tremendously, as these engines are lubricated  mostly by “blow by” and can run very hot. Fuel and tanks are also very critical for 4 stroke operation. Make sure you have a tank that delivers fuel easily to the engine, as four strokes don’t seem to like having to pull fuel from the tank. Use as short a fuel tank as possible and keep it close to the engine. A lot of people use muffler pressure or pumps to help feed the 4 stroke engines. I have used OS VF pumps, Perry vibration pumps and Perry pressure pumps with my test on 4 strokes. I would suggest,as we do with 2 strokes, to use a Sullivan “Crap trap” fuel filter. They hold a lot of junk ,and have a very good double cone design, that pushes the debris away to the sides and almost never stop up. If you get a stopped up filter on a four stroke ( or 2 stroke for that matter) you can burn the engine up in one flight

  When you  use motors for the first time, you should also make sure you have the motor properly broken in.  This will range from six tanks of fuel for one engine to almost two gallons for others.  OS, for example, says two hours running time for their motors. A good break-in procedure is to use the same fuel as you will for your Stunt run ,and try to do your break-in on a bench; this is a lot better and an easier way to do a proper break-in.  A diameter, one inch smaller than you plan to run at, at a 3 or 4 pitch, should be the prop to use.  This will let the motor turn many revolutions more per motor run time.  Start out in a very sloppy four-cycle for cast iron lapped piston and  most ringed motors, slowly progressing to the fastest it will run in a four-cycle, then put it in a short two-cycle burst for short times.  After the correct amount of time it should be able to run in a two-cycle without heating up and going leaner. Using  3 to 6 ounces per run with 5 to 10 minutes  cool down time in between.

For ABC, AAC ,ABL, ABC-R and ABN motors, start out in a very fast four-cycle and about every 45 seconds; pinch the fuel tube to kick the motor into a momentary two-cycle. These  types of engines  normally  take  more  break-in time than do their iron lapped piston cousins . If you can run the motor in a fast four-cycle and without touching the needle, pinch the tubing to lean the motor into a two-cycle for 20 seconds or so, then it should go right back to a four.  After breaking  in  the engine with a few  tanks of fuel , you can start using the needle  to cycle back and forth from 2 to 4 cycle. When it is broke in you should be able  to hold a 2 cycle for 30 seconds or  so,  and come back to a  4 quickly by turning the needle richer . If not, it probably needs more running time.

Plugs  can also be  a  major cause of trouble, and poor runs.  When you first crank the plane, notice if it goes rich and sags slightly when the battery is removed; if so, the plug is normally too cold.  This is  critical to getting a proper Stunt run.

Most plugs are designed to provide a  colder range than we want in C\L aerobatic engines , and you should try to get the right range for the motor.  Many days of testing and much time and expense buying almost every plug on the market has yielded these results ;Thunder Bolt R\C long, T Bolt #3 , T Bolt 4 stroke, Glo Devil RC #300 long,  Enya 3 & 4, Fireball RC long, the Hobby Shack RC long, SIC RC long  a few of the OS hotter plugs and some of the FOX long and  Miracle plugs are best plugs for our use.  In almost all instances, use a long plus, as they will be substantially hotter than the shorts, plus they are deeper in the combustion chamber and this tends to keep things hotter and keeps  the plug elements cleaner.

A lot of times the plug problems show up as rich inside maneuvers and leaner outsides; this happens because gravity and centrifugal force ,forces the oil-fuel charge down on the element on insides, thus cooling the coil and pulls it away on the outside maneuvers, letting it naturally go leaner.  I have seen this problem instantly cured by simply changing plugs. Please  do not be  afraid  to put in a  new  glo plug , or try different types of plugs .
 All of this assumes you have your tank height perfect (you did adjust your tank height, didn’t you), you’re right side up and inverted lap times are the same.  This is important; don’t skip this step. If your  using a  profile sometimes you will need  to have the tank center higher than the engine center. The 3 \16 to 3 \8 range will do for most fox 35s . Others will run on center line ,or just off of it. Another case of run problems are tanks or fuel delivery systems, which includes the tank, fuel tubing ,fuel filter, and anything else connected to the fuel system. When these problems arise in most cases, the engine changes speeds in flight, either faster or slower , and is generally inconsistent in the needle setting. This is almost always blamed as an “engine problem” when in fact it almost always turns out to be a tank problem, or fuel delivery system problem. I find most every time I see this , it is one component of the fuel system that is at fault. Either a hole in the fuel tubing, junk in the filter, a hole in the tank, a tank with an internal crack in the pick up or feed line . The next most common problem of this is water in the fuel. Water will give a very inconsistent needle setting, and will change at random back and forth from lean to rich. There are a few other things that cause problems with fuel delivery, muffler or pipe pressure will, most times magnify any little leak or problem you have and make things much worse than they were. A few other causes are an engine with a leaking backplate gasket, or an improperly cooled engine. A basic rule of thumb is to have a good intake area, with double the size of the exhaust area. Make sure you model (if fully cowled) has the air blowing all the way across and past the engine before the air flow exits the cowling.  If your plane goes lean in maneuvers and comes back to a four-cycle slowly, it can be running too hot, you most likely need more oil, or less back pressure from the muffler.  I have seen a lot of fuel with water in it (methanol attracts water) and this will cause erratic runs and needle settings.  Always use fresh fuel and don’t be afraid to try another fuel if you think this is the problem.

Never try to put a brand new engine in a plane and try to break it in, trim and fly at the same time.  I have seen this too many times with disastrous results. It is  very hard to richen a too lean needle when the plane goes lean in flight.  Keep good care of your equipment and it will usually take care of you; abuse it and it will most times let you down.

     Now, a little more about fuels .For you guys who absolutely gotta buy the bargain R/C sport fuel…No amount of persuading will convince you otherwise; you at the very least need to add a healthy dose of castor oil.  You can roughly figure 1.3 ounces will raise the oil content one percent (i.e. 13 ounces of oil to make 15% oil fuel into 25% oil fuel).  This is not recommended and at the very best will usually be a guess, but  it is much better than not adding anything at all, and I know people that do this  all the time and get it to work for them .Example using  Fire Power Cool 15%, pour off 13 ounces and add 13 ounces of Castor, this will be close to 11% nitro, and 24 to 25 % oil , this would make an OK fuel for plain bearing FP type motors, add a little more oil, and you have a fuel that you could run in your Foxes. The final thing I would like to say  is to make sure you use an after-run oil between sessions and when you store the motors.  This is another must do, because of the nature of the fuel we use.  Then nitromethane or any nitropariffins burn, they leave behind, in your motor, acid and water, this, along with the water carried in partly by the alcohol, gets together and eats your bearing and other parts.  Good quality after run oil is easy to get; don’t skip this step.  If you can’t find a good after run at your local hobby shop, there are many available that are made by several companies…then try Prather’s.  They make a good one and so does RJL and Aero Products.  Do not use motor oil, Marvel Mystery oil; this is not after run oil.

Marvel makes excellent oil that can be used and as an after run oil and it is available from most auto parts stores and is called Marvel Air Tool oil.  As a matter of fact, most air tool oils can be used as an after run oil; they are designed to fight corrosion in metal air tools and this is exactly what we are looking for.  Another good place to get these types of oils are the large home supply stores like Home Depots and Builders Square type stores.  Look in the department where they carry air compressor and paint guns.  There are many brands of these oils so you see you have no excuse not to use them.

As for fuels, there are many good companies out there that will supply you with a good usable Stunt fuel.  You will need to search them out in your area.  .  If you are using some of these suppliers, call them up.  I’m sure most of them will oblige you.  The model magazine are full of 800 numbers for fuel suppliers and the ones that I have mentioned come highly recommended; however, this is by no means all of them.

SIG for example has a very high quality fuel that is stocked by dealer all over the country; their Champion is 20% blended oil and with extra castor or oil supplements, such as AERO-1, makes an excellent Stunt fuel. Sig and I believe Power Master also make 20 or  25 % all castor fuels, as well as  good  4 stroke fuel. Power Master is now making fuel for control line aerobatic planes, as are  many other companies. There are more companies making good C\L stunt fuel such as  S&W and others. I just don’t  know them all and have   not  used their  fuels in a while  Keep in mind things will vary slightly, so don’t be afraid to try something new, or your buddy’s fuel if you suspect you have a fuel problem.


Randy Smith

Offline Dennis Holler

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2011, 10:17:27 AM »
Randy,
Thank you for the advise, I' take it!!  I'll either mix myself to about 22%oil half and half or find some Sig fuel.  I'll save the Fox 29% castor for the old Mccoy's and Fox's I have although I see you recommend using at least some synthetic with those engines to keep them clean as well.  I haven't run the .56 just yet.

IF I switch the ST V.56 over to CL what size of venturi would you recommend?  I'd probably need the venturi and the nva I suspect you have those parts.

Also, what type or heat range glow plug would be appropriate for those engines (ST V 51/56/60)?

Thanks in advance!  H^^
I've started plenty...would be nice to finish something!!!

Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 03:09:04 PM »
Randy,
Thank you for the advise, I' take it!!  I'll either mix myself to about 22%oil half and half or find some Sig fuel.  I'll save the Fox 29% castor for the old Mccoy's and Fox's I have although I see you recommend using at least some synthetic with those engines to keep them clean as well.  I haven't run the .56 just yet.

IF I switch the ST V.56 over to CL what size of venturi would you recommend?  I'd probably need the venturi and the nva I suspect you have those parts.

Also, what type or heat range glow plug would be appropriate for those engines (ST V 51/56/60)?

Thanks in advance!  H^^


HI

I would use a #15 drill size on a true venturie, this is the same as about a .300 restrictor, You would use a HOT plug such as a Glo Devil 300, RC Long T Bolt, T Bolt Big Bore, Sig R C long  Enya 3#
Yes I have all the above

Regards
Randy

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2011, 11:55:18 AM »
Never use all castor in the ST 46 51 or 56 and 60  it will burn, goo, and freeze the ring in the piston groove. You DO NOT need all castor in those type engines and you do not want all castor in them, So use it at your own peril

Regards
Randy

HI Randy,

Just passing on what the directions from Tom say. ;D  And, as I said, I always put an ounce or two of synthetic in the fuel to keep the varnish from building up.  It only needs that much, as it seems, to keep things pretty clean. 

I did try all synthetic in my T&L .G.51 and it was a bear to get the same runs I had been getting.  Actually I never did.  Aggravated, I returned to the 25% castor (2 ounces of synthetic added) and the good runs returned.  I have no clue as to the reasons that happened (I admit to not being a guru in the engine dept.).  Maybe it was a heating/cooling problem?

Heck, you know better than anyone else that I just ask you what to do.  If you ever start fibbing to me, I will be lost! LOL!!

Bill
(it's nice to have friends that know their stuff, makes life a lot easier with these toy airplanes)
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2011, 04:32:42 PM »
Hi Bill

I do not recommenced all synthetic in the ST engines, I have setup more than 1000 ST 46 ,51, 60 and have seen them run for decades. They run better longer with 1/2 castor 1/2 synthetic, I can't tell you how many I have seen ruined by all castor fuel. I built many ST 46s and ST 60s for Ed Southwick, He ran the fuel I suggested 23% oil 1/2 and 1/2. until he was told all castor worked better, is was not long that his ST46 and ST 60 started to loose compression and not run well, he called, we talked and I asked him to try running synthetic fuel through the 2 motors, This fortunately worked for him and unstuck the ring and the motor compression and run returned, others were not so lucky.
This is just one a a hundred stories I could tell you, so as I stated use all castor at your own risk.

Randy

Offline phil c

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2011, 07:26:23 PM »
......  I DID find on my first ST G.51 that he did for me (1992! LOL!!) that the all castor (Sig 25% all castor) gave a steadier, more repeatable, engine run.  I have no real clue as to "why" ???......
Thanks!
Bill

Adding some castor to a fuel, especially a mostly sythetic blend, will change how it runs.  It seems to do something to the ignition and smooth out the 4 cycle part of the run.  We discovered this running a couple of LA 46's.  They ran fine, but always seemed to be running "hard".  Adding 5-6 oz. of castor to a gallon smoothed out the run a lot.
phil Cartier

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2011, 07:36:54 PM »
Hi Bill

I do not recommenced all synthetic in the ST engines, I have setup more than 1000 ST 46 ,51, 60 and have seen them run for decades. They run better longer with 1/2 castor 1/2 synthetic, I can't tell you how many I have seen ruined by all castor fuel. I built many ST 46s and ST 60s for Ed Southwick, He ran the fuel I suggested 23% oil 1/2 and 1/2. until he was told all castor worked better, is was not long that his ST46 and ST 60 started to loose compression and not run well, he called, we talked and I asked him to try running synthetic fuel through the 2 motors, This fortunately worked for him and unstuck the ring and the motor compression and run returned, others were not so lucky.
This is just one a a hundred stories I could tell you, so as I stated use all castor at your own risk.

Randy

Well, Randy, I don't and never have run ALL CASTOR in the ST's.  I said that I have always added some synthetic because I don't want the rings to stick......... you keep saying at "YOUR" own risk and you're talking to me so I figure you're trying to tell me something I have already answered, and in your favor..  I don't run "all" castor in them, never have never will.  I also never said YOU advised running all synthetic, either........ what's up?

Bill
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2011, 08:52:48 PM »
Well, Randy, I don't and never have run ALL CASTOR in the ST's.  I said that I have always added some synthetic because I don't want the rings to stick......... you keep saying at "YOUR" own risk and you're talking to me so I figure you're trying to tell me something I have already answered, and in your favor..  I don't run "all" castor in them, never have never will.  I also never said YOU advised running all synthetic, either........ what's up?

Bill

Hi Bill

I talking about your statement  "I did try all synthetic in my T&L .G.51 and it was a bear to get the same runs I had been getting."""   I told him I recommend 1/2 castor then you brought up "all synthetic"  So I needed to clarify I did NOT say all synthetic, you were trying for whatever reason to compare apples to oranges, I did assume that your post was directed at my previous post, where I told him half and half

If you read what I said to him, I never said run all synthetic or  all castor. Bottom line neither is good for STs, That was the point I was addressing for him  before you came in and brought up the  "all synthetic "  Which I want to make  CLEAR ,I do not recommend, and is  not good  to use either
You are free to use heavy castor and heavy oil in your motors, but I would be suspect if 2% synthetic will stop the large amount of castor from gumming up the motor :-)

Regards
Randy

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2011, 08:58:05 PM »
Adding some castor to a fuel, especially a mostly sythetic blend, will change how it runs.  It seems to do something to the ignition and smooth out the 4 cycle part of the run.  We discovered this running a couple of LA 46's.  They ran fine, but always seemed to be running "hard".  Adding 5-6 oz. of castor to a gallon smoothed out the run a lot.


Hi Phil

I found the same, which is why I recommended the half castor  half synthetic, It runs well and protects well

Regards
Randy

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2011, 09:11:35 PM »
Ah, sorry, I wasn't referring to your post at all.  As you can see, I specifically called Bob Z.'s name.  I try not to contradict anything you say, I know better than to do that.  Just appeared funny that you seemed to be jumping on me for no apparent reason. Read my reply #3 which was before you came into the topic and I said not to use the all castor in the ST..  I only posted a reply to Bob Zambelli's post and asked him a question.  Then I did pass on a problem I had with all synthetic, and possibly wanting to get a response that would explain WHY I had the problem.  Not in reference to anything you recommend, or don't recommend, but looking, possibly, for an answer to why the all synthetic didn't run worth a darn.  Guess I shouldn't do that........ sorry.

Bill
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2011, 09:15:59 PM »
Ah, sorry, I wasn't referring to your post at all.  As you can see, I specifically called Bob Z.'s name.  I try not to contradict anything you say, I know better than to do that.  Just appeared funny that you seemed to be jumping on me for no apparent reason. Read my reply #3 which was before you came into the topic and I said not to use the all castor in the ST..  I only posted a reply to Bob Zambelli's post and asked him a question.  Then I did pass on a problem I had with all synthetic, and possibly wanting to get a response that would explain WHY I had the problem.  Not in reference to anything you recommend, or don't recommend, but looking, possibly, for an answer to why the all synthetic didn't run worth a darn.  Guess I shouldn't do that........ sorry.

Bill

Hi Bill

No I was not jumping on you, please don't missread what i wrote, My point was to make sure it was clear what I was saying and I just didn't want it to be confused
And the reason for my saying at your risk is just as I stated I do not think that only 2% out of 27% total oil will stop that large amount of castor from sticking the ring in the groove...your mileage may vary 

Regards
Randy

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2011, 09:31:27 PM »
Hi Bill

No I was not jumping on you, please don't missread what i wrote, My point was to make sure it was clear what I was saying and I just didn't want it to be confused
And the reason for my saying at your risk is just as I stated I do not think that only 2% out of 27% total oil will stop that large amount of castor from sticking the ring in the groove...your mileage may vary 

Regards
Randy

OK, I haven't run the STs in a while, next time out I will use the 1/2 and 1/2 Sig Champion (22%??).  That, and what we "mixed" at Huntersville is all we have right now anyway. ;D  Well, Alan Hayes did give me a gallon of Sig 15% nitro, 25% all castor that had been on his shelf for years. ;D 

Bill
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Offline Dennis Holler

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2011, 10:11:46 PM »
You guys  LL~

Thanks for all the help, I am sure I could ask a bunch more dumb questions  HB~>   I got the second V.56 in the mail yesterday and it was very nice indeed y1 Two rings like the other .56, but not quite as tall a head fin and it does have the center threaded hole in the exhaust like the .60.  I was bad (my wife told me so  mw~ mw~ ) and bid for and won two more .60's ( I thought I was good cause I let a bunch more neato stuff go) tonight  VD~ one seemingly good in its nice red box and another for parts or we will see  #^   We'll see how funky they are when they show up  LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~... Last year it was Mccoy .35's now its is old ST's........... I seem to have some issues I guess.  Maybe I'm at least moving up a little... and maybe junk is junk!!!!  LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ Randy, I'll be getting in touch with yo about some parts I suspect once you  return from VSC  y1
I've started plenty...would be nice to finish something!!!

Offline Bill Little

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Re: ST .56 any good?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2011, 10:44:07 PM »
Hi Dennis,

You should be happy with the old STs.  They can still power a nice model and give a lot of good flights!  Maybe they are being used in the Top 5 anymore, but then not all of us have the need for those types of set ups.  I have the PA pipe set ups and they are really sweet, but as I get away from really trying to be great at this stuff (never was and getting too "old" now, at least the body is! LOL!!) I can use an old engine in a plane and not feel bad about it.  ;D  The advantages to the great set ups in use today is their abilities in "bad air", IMHO.  And the repeatability in engine runs is a lot easier to get, with less actual experience in the "whys".  There is a difference, but at my level, it might be as important as it once was.  It didn't help the old ST .60 any that they have been out of production for so long now, either.  But Richie K. did win the 2010 World Championships in F2B with one. ;D 

The original SV 11 was designed around the ST .60 (if I ain't gone completely crazy) and plenty have been flown with them.  IIRC, Bill Rich used that combination to almost win the NATS.  Most any of the popular big planes these days will fly fine with a ST up front.  A good friend of mine is just now making the switch from ".60 muffled engines" to a pipe set up, and he is a pretty good expert level flier!

What I'm trying to say is, you can get a lot of enjoyment from the ST engines so put them to use! LL~

Bill
(and I really like Randy and consider him a good friend ;D )
Big Bear <><

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James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by


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