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Author Topic: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started  (Read 1966 times)

Offline Randy Powell

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Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« on: April 04, 2010, 09:21:18 PM »
Well, I got my 65 back from Dub Jett. It's just as tight as it was when I first bought it. That is one heck of a pinch at the top on the stroke. I spent a half hour today trying to start it. Got a couple of almost starts, but no tamale. Kept stopping half way through the stroke. If it's like last time, it just takes one start to get it going, but I may need rotator cuff surgery by then. At least the seal should last a good, long time.

And the finger was cut hitting the rather sharp prop nut I was using on one of those tries where the thing froze in the middle of the compression stroke. Sucker is sure sore and ended today's session.

I'll get it, but I may be pretty sore before I do.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 10:53:57 PM »
I wear leather gloves when I start engines, and I wear leather shoes around my wife's horses.  I do both for the same reasons -- so that when things go wrong, it's easy to collect all the pieces to take the emergency room!

I learned a tip from David Gierke's book, and have used it with great success, is that if you have an ABC engine that's really tight, heat the head up good and hot with a heat gun -- this makes the cylinder expand, and gives you a chance to start it.  Then when it's running, you can do the usual ABC engine break in thing.

Granted, I've only used this tip once, for my one and only ABC engine, but it sure worked well that one time!
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 07:51:28 AM »
There are others way more qualified to answer this but here's my experience with a simiar problem. I haven't found traditional flipping to work real well when the pinch is tight at the top. I use the "back slap" (my words, there are probably more technically correct terms to describe this technique - little help here) method. Basically positioning the prop against compression then slapping it with two fingers in the opposite direction of rotation. I won't continue further because you are probably familier with this technique but for engines that are tight, worth a try.  8)
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Offline Paul Wood

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 09:47:43 AM »
Randy,

Tim is correct about using pre-heat to loosen the sleeve/piston fit.  I've been starting these very tight R/C engines for years and have never been able to hand start a new engine.  The tight tolerance will not let the engine rotate thru the second revolution.  I would get an old spinner and use a starter.  Just be careful not to spin the cold/dry engine too much.  The piston/sleeve will wear pretty fast until the head temp comes up.  Also, do not run the engine rich when tight.  The temp must come up to expand the sleeve.  Many new guys have ruined their new R/C engines by breaking them in too rich.  Save your fingers, use a heat gun and starter my friend.  And be prepared for the prop nut to pop loose during the first few starts.  Be cautious about that!

Paul

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 12:57:36 PM »
Paul,

I would love to use a starter, but my heavy duty Sullivan starter hooked to a car battery is not enough to spin it through a compression cycle. It just stops at the top of the stroke. I spent a long time yesterday backflipping, compression stroke flipping and trying to get a starter to work. As I said, no deal, but I will get it. Smacking the prop in a back flip motion which Pete describes is how I broke two props (both wood). I now have an APC prop on it that should hold up a bit better. I like using wood props in breaking in to save fingers. APC props are sharp. But I'll stick with the chicken stick and it will be fine.

I was mostly just whining. I'll get it, but my shoulder is sore as is my finger, so I plunged into a bit of woe is me. I'll get back at it again. It was the same when the engine was new. Just took awhile, but sure was cool once broke in.
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Offline Barry

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 07:26:49 PM »
Randy

I'm an r/c pylon racer.  Start these things all the time.
Assuming it isn't damaged from dry flipping do the following.
Put some oil in intake and down plug hole
Turn it over not flip just pull it through about 20 times with plug out.
On test stand set it up to run
Put spinner hub or old spinner on it. Make sure prop is tight
When ready to start
Before putting glow driver on it do following
Finger over muffler outlet or intake
Spin starter up to max
With starter running full tilt push hard against spinner / spinner nut
Engine will spin and draw fuel due to finger over muffler outlet or intake
We use muffler so just finger over muffler outlet.
After fuel spraying out intake due to plugged muffler stop
Turn prop backwards until you feel compression.
Glow driver on
Spin up starter and push hard against spinner / spinner nut.
The trick is hitting the spinner with the starter at full song.
After you have run it a while it will get easier.
If all else fails try warming cyl however I’ve never had to do it and we use engines that are very very tight
If it floods remove plug and hit it with starter
No damage to engine when hitting it with the starter because of bearings
Takes much longer to explain than to do

Barry

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 10:23:21 AM »
Barry,

I did this with the starter. I run the starter up and apply to spinner. The engine spins to the top of the stroke then stops and the starter either continues to spin on the spinner or just stops. As I said, the engine was like this when I first got it. Took awhile to get it to fire finally. Once it started once, it was fine. I will try again tonight (if the weather cooperates). I'm sure I'll get it.
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 10:54:50 AM »
Randy
When I was in R/C we had to loosen the plug on the Rossi .80 ducted fan engines to reduce compression just for starting and then tighten up the plug after it started.  Sounds crazy but it worked.  Don't know if your problem is compression, pinch or a combination of both.  The spin up of the starter is a good way to overcome compression I use this method for bump starting my larger diesel engines. 
Andy
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 04:05:03 PM »
Andrew,

The problem is clearly pinch. Sucker is tight at the top. It sqeaks.   ;D
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Offline Barry

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 04:24:27 PM »
Randy:
We use the Sullivan dynatron high torque starter with a soft neoprene cone with a 12 V gel cell strapped to it or a bunch of C size NiCad’s.  Also alum spinner or big spinner hub which helps with slipping.
Try heating the cyl with a hair dryer or heat gun see if that helps. (watch the heat gun, mine will actually melt alum).
When our engines are new, even  after having been run a few times, they squeak and are so hard to turn over you think it would damage the piston.  (I hurt one once with a new p/l  by trying to start it without lubing it first).   
As someone said you can also loosen the plug.  It might work better but I really don’t think it’s a good idea.

Barry
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2010, 10:33:23 AM »
Barry,

I was using a Sullivan Hi-Torque 90 connected to a 400 amp car battery. Yeow!

However, I did get the thing started last night. Just took persistence (as I knew it would). My arm is tired, but it's humming along. As per Dub's instructions, I ran it for about 2 minutes, let it cool for a couple of minutes then ran it again, etc. Got about 15 minutes on it at this point (about 12oz of fuel or so). After that first trouble, it's starting more and more easily. Bt the last time, it took two flips. This is pretty much what I expected. This is an engine with about 150 flights on it that received a new piston and cylinder (along with some other things). Refurbished.

Next I get to start on the other one (a brand new unit).   ;D
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Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2010, 07:29:46 AM »
If starting a new one is that bad, I would look for one of the R/C gear reduction starters.  You can probably find one at a swap meet for chump change, and it should be able to tackle the tightest of motors.  My cheapie magnum copy of the kavan starter handles 60 motors with ease, a "real" gear starter should be able to turn over anything you might get your hands on with no trouble.
Steve

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2010, 09:50:26 AM »
Steve,

This wasn't a big deal, just interesting. As noted, I got it started eventually and flew it in the plane for the first time this weekend. It flew great and the engine is settling in nicely.

Just a note: when I got the 65 back, I also ordered a 61 BSE. Put that on the stand yesterday. Took about 10 minutes to fire it up the first time and I had the minimum 1/2 hour on it pretty quickly. Sweet engine.

Next up will be a PA 75. I understand they are sweethearts, too.
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Offline Luiz Ribeiro

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2010, 09:51:03 AM »
The best way is to warm the head with a heat gun, as mentioned by David Gierke or even with an iron solder, just touching the head the time enough to warm it.  These methods are easier and softer and don’t cause the risk to broken or damage a con rod, the engine or yourself. Then you start the engine by hand flipping with a safety stick or with a starter (you can use a spinner with the propeller). I have already tested them, more than one time in ABC engines, and they always worked well.

Luiz

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Two broken props, 5 stitches and it's still not started
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2010, 11:48:15 AM »
Luiz,

I suspect that the problems I had would have been much, much less if I was doing this in the summer. The weather was cold (well, in the 40sF with a lot of humidity). Had the temp been higher, say in the mid 70sF, I suspect this would have been easier. When I broke the 61 in yesterday, the temps were in the low to mid 60sF. Could be why it pretty fired right up.
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