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Author Topic: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine  (Read 1975 times)

Offline Bob Zambelli

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Here are a few pointers about 4-stroke engines that I have either personally experienced/discovered or learned through feedback on my 4S mailing list. As I’ve often stated, what works for me may not do so for others so use your best judgment.

When a 4S engine is mounted inverted, it is best to start it that way.
Why? A 2S engine has no exhaust facility in the head. When it’s inverted, any fuel in the head will stay there and can cause hydro-lock. When turned upright, the fuel can either drain out the exhaust port or back into the crankcase.
A 4S, on the other hand, has the valves in the head which, when inverted, is the lowest point of the engine.
After choking or priming, you should always turn the prop gently and if you feel it locking, just turn it back gently until the valve opens. This will force some fuel back up the intake tract and eventually out the exhaust – you’ll see fuel running out the muffler. Then, turn it gently back and forth until it will go over TDC without resistance.
Look at it this way – if a 4S engine is mounted upright, a slug of fuel can ride up and down on top of the piston and since the slug is below the valves, it will not clear out.
4S engines like to start wet but if too wet, they will run backwards AND, here’s something to be aware of:
If you are running muffler pressure and your pressure line is submerged (as in uniflow), there is a very good chance that the engine will continue to run backwards. In other words, the muffler becomes a carburetor and the carburetor becomes an exhaust. Now, your engine is running backwards, discharging exhaust gases into the engine compartment. Possible fire? You bet.
But, it’s simple to stop – just put your finger over the muffler outlet. Stops instantly.

As different fuel systems start and behave differently, you must experiment to find which routine works best for yours and stick with it. Go to an electric starter if it makes you feel more comfortable but remember to clear out any flooding.

I find that, for the most part, my 4S engines seem to run better on their sides – not only the run quality but also the fuel draw seems better. An engine that requires muffler pressure when inverted or upright may not when profile mounted.

Many people have asked me about oil. I NEVER run my engines on less than 22% oil. I know that many use 20/20 but it just makes me uncomfortable. Since a 4S engine derives all its lubrication from blowby, a combination of a tight ring fit and low oil content may spell disaster for your gem. So it smokes a bit more – no big deal. As I recall, the 4S failures I’ve witnessed were on (larger) engines running less than 20% lube. Once again, your results may vary.
For what it’s worth, the best all-around fuel I’ve found for both my 2 and 4S engines is the Brodak 10/23/50-50.

Props? My best results have been with APC and Master Airscrew. I know that a lot of people have used more exotic carbon props but I have no experience with them and therefore cannot comment.
I have found that lots of pitch is the ticket – I use mostly 6 and 7. Buy yourself a few of each and experiment to see what best suits your situation.

A little rule of thumb for 4S props that may help:
9 to 10 inch diameter for .20 to .30 engines
11 to 12 for .40 to .46
12 to 13 for .52 to .56
13 and above for .72 and larger

Regarding three-blade props, I’ve only run one on a 4S engine and that was a 12-6 on the SAITO .62 and it seemed to work just fine.

Finally, 4S engines seem to need lots more break in time than 2S. You may need two to three HOURS of running before realizing full potential.

Hope this helps,

Bob Z.

ps - Should anyone wish to be on my 4-stroke mailing list, just e-mail me and I'll make it happen.
                             <rzambelli@moog.com>


Offline proparc

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2007, 07:21:10 PM »
Most important, buy the biggest son-of-a-bitch honking 4 stroke that you can stick in the nose.  While I dearly love my Saito 40A, (pure jewelry) it's the big block that goes out to the flying field lol. y1
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2007, 04:01:38 PM »

I'm mounting a Saito 40A on an old Profile Oriental and it has a metal uniflow tank already. How high above the centerline of the engine crank should the tank be? I would like to try this first and if it doesn't work then I will have to go with the clunk. Or am I just dreaming?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 04:53:05 PM by Greg L Bahrman »
Greg Bahrman, AMA 312522
Simi Valley, Ca.

Alan Hahn

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2007, 04:28:07 PM »
Greg,
Your starting point needs to be the centerline of the intake manifold. So I would position the centerline of the tank a little (~1/8") above that as a starter.

Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2007, 04:54:38 PM »
Thanks Alan,
Well as it turns out I was going to use the same metal tank I used on the 2 stroke but in moving the engine back and trying to move the original tank up to where it should be things were just not working out so I am going to go with the clunk tank as soon as I make a new mount for it. It will be a much cleaner installation. This is not a front row plane but it would be nice if it all worked proper if you know what I mean. This is my first experience with a 4 stroke in a control line plane as all my others were RC ships, oops did I say that? Anywhohow I'll keep ya all posted as things progress.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 12:46:27 AM by Greg L Bahrman »
Greg Bahrman, AMA 312522
Simi Valley, Ca.

Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2007, 04:07:58 PM »
I gotta be nuts as I pulled a perfectly good OS LA46 off this Profile Oriental so I could create a Profile 40 ship. I got the Saito 40A engine mounted and the tank mounted. I moved the engine back a bit but I was surprised that the LA 46 with muffler and metal tank is almost the same weight as this engine with the plastic tank. I did leave some room between the engine and the tank in case I have to move the engine back some more. Now all I gotta do is plumb the tank and paint the tank mount oh yeah and sand the front of the fuse and repaint it. Not a big deal cause it just needs to be good enough to be fuel proof etc. Not a beauty. Tank is a 4 oz. clunk, is this going to be big enough ?. Starting to get a little excited though. Both my buddy and I lost our profile ships so we don't have anything for profile 40 class. Looks like we will be sharing this monster if we can get it trimmed out good enough. You think ??

      y1    #^
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 06:45:37 PM by Greg L Bahrman »
Greg Bahrman, AMA 312522
Simi Valley, Ca.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2007, 05:33:57 PM »
Well, Greg, from what I can see, the plane itself looks pretty darn good!

You have the tank where you can easily move it, and you should be able to test the upright/inverted fairly easily on the ground and get "in the ballpark". y1

That "40" should be OUTSTANDING in the profile Oriental!  GOT FOR IT! ;D

Bill <><
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Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2007, 06:03:12 PM »

The other point to consider a 4S engine is the fuel consumption. 4S burn less fuel the a 2S.

When comparing, consider the weight of the combo Engine+Fuel Tank+Fuel  and not just the engine by it self.

The most economic Engine I know of is the OS 70 Ultimate (with the fuel pump removed and venturi installed) Burns only 2.2Oz, plane was a 61 Oz P-51 swinging a 14x6 prop.

I was told by some experts that the CG on a plane with 4S can be a little more forward then a 2S. The reasons is because the 4S engine will make one turn with no detonation, thus allowing the ship turn better. Does it make sense?

Martin
Old Enya's never die, they just run stronger!

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Alan Hahn

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 07:58:43 PM »
Martin,
I have heard the same thing, however I never understood why the laws of physics depended on whether the powerplant was a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke. After all, the cg is a turning issue (it is easier to rotate when the cg is further back). If the rpm is about the same, and the prop diameter likewise, then even the gyroscope effect would be about the same.
What planes I have flown with a 4-stroke (Saito 30 and 40a), I simply balanced at the "stock" location.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2007, 04:48:23 AM »
Greg,

Looking good... but you have a couple steps to go..

Drill and tap the top side of that UHP insert and run a 10-32 nylon screw into the side, don't run the tap all the way through so the threads will be pretty tight on the screw. You want it to fit tight enough that you need a screw driver to turn it.

Plumb the tank conventional and run muffler pressure to the vent.

Not sure what prop that is but get an 11-7 Zinger pro, clean it up and thin a tad with sandpaper. Round off any square edges on the LE and thin the TE as much as you dare. Just try and think how slick it looks to air and follow your gut.

Run YS 20-20 and adjust your screw and needle so it peaks out around 8500 on the ground. Back off the needle to the rich side two clicks from peaked. This might be a little fast but not a bad place to start and you can slow it down with the nylon screw when you get use to how it acts.

If it ends up like mine the screw will choke off almost 2/3rds of the intake and you will use a full 4 ounces of fuel for the pattern. It won't sag over the top, loose speed in the square eights or rush the down legs. If it does any of these bad things your venturi is too big and/or you are running too low a pitch prop.

Good luck and keep us updated

Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2007, 09:49:12 AM »
Bob,
Do you mean drill and tap the delrin (black) insert ? ? ?
Thanks
Greg Bahrman, AMA 312522
Simi Valley, Ca.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2007, 10:46:38 AM »
Bob,
Do you mean drill and tap the delrin (black) insert ? ? ?
Thanks

Yes, I made another insert when I did mine because I was not real sure it would work but now I wouldn't hesitate to drill the one that came with it. Just be very careful with the tap, only about 1/2 turn between a just right fit and too loose. If you do get it too loose you could put a nylon lock nut on the screw but it will make adjusting it a real PTA as you won't be able to adjust it with the engine running.

If you try to run the engine with the stock insert you will either be flying too fast or end up with all the run problems I mentioned in the previous post. You can also add layers of pantie hose, but after I got to about 8 layers the pantie hose got pretty unmanageable so I went with the screw..

BTW: The forward CG thing is not a myth. My TwistMaster balances almost on the wing leading edge and still turns with the best of em. It will be flying in P-40 at Brodaks baring any unplanned events.

Offline proparc

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2007, 11:59:42 AM »
Greg, Wait till you see how powerful that 40A is-He He. ;)
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2007, 12:18:33 PM »
OK Bob,
You mean like this??  I did like you said and made it tight so it can't vibrate loose. It's a nylon screw 10-32, kind of greenish color, it's the only one I could find in my junk drawer.
Greg Bahrman, AMA 312522
Simi Valley, Ca.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2007, 01:46:33 PM »
Perrrrrfect...  And Oh ya to what Proparc said... Get ready to be impressed  ;D ;D ;D

Alan Hahn

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2007, 06:13:43 PM »
As regarding balance, I suggest trying to balance at the same point with a 2 stroke by adding some lead to the nose. See if it makes any difference. I am just asking why a 4 stroke is different than a 2 stroke? I understand why a 4 stroke tends to be more nose heavy than a 2 stroke at equivalent power?
I have nothing against 4 strokes, in fact I really do like them.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: A few things that may help if you're considering a 4-Stroke engine
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2007, 08:04:15 PM »
Alan,

Couple years ago before I really got into 4 strokes there were several threads going on Leonard's and RCO that addressed the CG issue. Not sure if the search engines can dig them up or not. I wasn't paying allot attention to 4 strokes at the time and now wished I had..

My personal experience with the TwistMaster started with an FP 40, adding 1 ounce of tail weight...then Brodak 40, removing 3/4 ounce tail weight. Next was a Saito 30 with no tail weight change, and now a Saito 40 with no tail weight change. The airplane is without a doubt nose heavy but turns just as well as it did with the Brodak 40.

I am not disputing what you are saying, I agree one should try to get the cg close to the plan. However on a four stroke powered airplane I feel you don't need to worry if it ends up a little nose heavy, fly it and see what it does. No reason to add weight if it turns and grooves to suite you regardless of where the cg falls.

BTW: My saito 56 powered Score balances a full inch forward of the plan and it turns just fine. I can't explain it but have witnessed it first hand.


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