Has anyone suggested vintage combat at Muncie? Seems like combat usually last half of the day,why not an unoffical match afterwards?i would assume Voodoos and Nemisis would be a hoot with modern .25s.

Steve

How's about a T-Square with a green head k&b.....That's what I had before the 100 or so VOODOO's   LOL

Aaah, '65 was a vintage year.  One of our club members, Phil Spillman was runnerup at the NATS that year with a 23 oz. VooDoo.  Years later, when he moved, he cleaned out his basement and gave us 10 old VooDoos, most ready to fly, with engines, including the '65 plane.  Tin tanks, crankcase pressure, Fox 36X's.  We took 'em out and tried to fly.  Very interesting session.  With over a hundred years of combat experience at the time, between the four of us, we got two of them up at the same time once in the afternoon.  I flew a couple of them.  Wow!  The Foxes were cranking around 85-90 mph.  The first half of a loop took nearly 90 degrees.  Once the plane slowed down you could move the controls and flop them around pretty good. I'd forgotten how truly far plane design, engines, and tanks have come.

Several groups have tried it.  If you actually fly combat, it quickly boils down to just a few designs and a G.21-35.

For a good time, try something like this.  Every plane has to actually fly to qualify.  No hangar queens.  Matches are optional.  Trophies for Best Crash(inevitable in combat, both pilots get a trophy)  Most Cuts(judges will make sure they are real cuts and not gimmes, but no official scoring, both pilots get an award), Fastest Plane, and pilot's choice for Prettiest Plane and  Most Authentic.

By rockets I assume you are talking about an engine,otherwise we need Clancy Arnold"s electronic controls.Two years ago my father and I went to watch FAST COMBAt @ Muncie. he saaid those planes were not only faster ,but turned much tighter than his Voodoos or Nemisis.He said they could get 118MPH out of a Super Tigre at the time(lots of massaging!).

Aaah, '65 was a vintage year.  One of our club members, Phil Spillman was runnerup at the NATS that year with a 23 oz. VooDoo.  Years later, when he moved, he cleaned out his basement and gave us 10 old VooDoos, most ready to fly, with engines, including the '65 plane.  Tin tanks, crankcase pressure, Fox 36X's.  We took 'em out and tried to fly.  Very interesting session.  With over a hundred years of combat experience at the time, between the four of us, we got two of them up at the same time once in the afternoon.  I flew a couple of them.  Wow!  The Foxes were cranking around 85-90 mph.  The first half of a loop took nearly 90 degrees.  Once the plane slowed down you could move the controls and flop them around pretty good. I'd forgotten how truly far plane design, engines, and tanks have come.

I don't know why you couldn't get a Voodoo with Fox 35X or 36X over 100 at least; with the right fuel/prop we routinely approached 110.  You might blow an occasional engine but you could get it there. And they did not take 90 d. to complete a loop!  There were certainly tighter-turning planes, even then (Combat Cat, Equalizer, for a couple) but the Voodoos weren't all that bad.  Your description sounds like you're thinking of the Netzeband wall (sp?) but I never experienced anything like that.  Those planes could jump. 

--Ray
An old '60s combatter. 

The only thing good about combat cats was that they came in double kits.....Two to build and maybe a 50/50 chance one would actually half way fly LOL. Double VOODOO kits ruled...LOL

My favorite design of that era was the Equalizer, big stunt-type airfoil, I think 390 or 400 sq. in. wing, what a smooth flier.  Not as fast as some, but it turned so well and lost so little speed it actually seemed to speed up in turns! And always inside the other guy.  I loved it.

--Ray

I think Barry Baxter has all of the old combat designs in plan form.  Might half to build several just to do it again.  Acouple of years ago I took a Big Iron to club meeting with Johnson 35  on crankcase pressure with metal tank.  It was clocked at 90+ with 9-7 nylon prop and 10% fuel.  It was too windy to fly anything else that night.  DOC Holliday

Ray, I just go by the numbers, not what I feel.  In 1960 a 105 mph VooDoo was a really big deal.  I remember seeing an ad or magazine article touting it after Riley won the NATS one year.  Cover story stuff.  Getting up over a hundred was a big deal.  '60's vintage stuff will hit 105 or so, in level flight.  Pull a tight turn and it slows down, sometimes waaay down.  Modern engines pull planes nearly twice as big and hold the speed up much better in maneuvers.

The short boom VooDoo always was a sluggish plane in a match.  The longer booms helped a lot.  It kind of is a Netzeband "wall" situation.  In level flight the control loads are high enough you can't move the elevator full control initially.  Once the plane slows down in maneuvers you can have full control.  If you get the CG just right it'll do  better, but the short tail makes the plane very sensitive to CG location.  And, with the short tail it takes a lot of weight to balance an engine much heavier than a Fox 35.

No argument here; just noting that 100-105 sounds more like reality than the 85-90 in the original post..."sluggish" is a relative term, depends a lot on what you're comparing it to. Many ships contemporary with the Voodoo could out-turn it. Certainly modern ships and engines are far, far superior to the old stuff, even as the 60s stabilator designs were head-and-shoulders above the earlier flying wings.  That's progress for ya. 

--Ray

Towards the latter part of the sixties you had some planes in the 120+ range. My father flew test models of the Super Satan with stock Fox .36x bb's and they clocked one at 128. Although this motor was a lot hotter out of the box then his others.  He also claimed they were out turning any other design and pretty much dominating in the NJ contests. I have all the templates for it and I'm going to throw one together and have some fun with it.  Picked up a NIB .36x last year on e-bay,just saw one go for $360.00 last week.    

Here is my vintage combat list - btw voodoo was from 1962

model*magazine* span*area*engine*designer
Combateer*1952 Air Trails Fb p44*33.00*300.00*.35*Young, H.R. & Huiet, M.L.
Combat Kid 1/2A*1952 Air Trails Ot p44*20.00*96.25*.05*Ehling, Frank V.B.
Combat Kid A*1952 Air Trails Ot p44*25.00*140.00*.198Ehling, Frank V.B.
Combat Kid B*1952 Air Trails Ot p44*30.00*210.00*.29-.35*Ehling, Frank V.B.
Cats Wiskers*1953 Air Trails Ag p29*38.25*320.00*.19-.35*Prechtl, J & Hasselbach, Art
Foxy*1953 Model Airplane News Nv p15*30.00*243.75*.35*Aldrich, George M.
Aggressor*1954 Air Trails Ap p76*36.00*288.00*.19-.35*Witt, Earl F.
Chopper IV*1954 Flying Models Ap p10*36.00*324.00*.29-.35*Davies, W.
Stumpy*1954 Model Airplane News Dc p16*18.00*88.50*.09*Richards, Jason
Pirate*1955 Flying Models Jn p11*0.00*0.00*.35       
Half Fast*1955 Model Airplane News Ap p9*32.00*264.75*.35*Netzeband, Bill F. Jr.
Greased Lightning*1956 Flying Models Jn*44.00*0.00*.35*Scarinzi, Larrry
Flipper 1*1956 Flying Models Sp p22*46.00*379.50*.35*Ure, Vim H.
Flipper II*1956 Flying Models Sp p22*40.00*330.00*.19*Ure, Vim H.
Flexi-Bull-It*1956 Model Airplane News Mr p18*36.00*320.00*.35*Vandesschel, Van
Manx Cat 4*1957 Flying Models Fb p8*26.00*364.00*.19-.35*Buragas, Bob J.
Manx Cat I*1957 Flying Models Fb p9*20.00*200.00*.19-.29*Buragas, Bob J.
Manx Cat II*1957 Flying Models Fb p9*25.00*250.00*.29-.35*Buragas, Bob J.
Manx Cat III*1957 Flying Models Fb p9*26.00*312.00*.29-.35*Buragas, Bob J.
Manx Kitten*1957 Flying Models Fb p9*10.00*50.00*.05-.06*Buragas, Bob J.
Stalker*1957 Flying Models Jn p10*26.00*233.25*.19-.35*Manuel, Bill H.
Quicker*1957 Model Airplane News Mr p14*36.50*328.50*.35*Wooten, Riley
Canadian Combat design*1958 American Modeler Ap p29*24.00*216.00*.35*Moore, Ian & Troyer, John
Needham Combat*1958 American Modeler Nv p10*28.00*266.00*.35*Needham, Ron
Whatizit*1958 Model Airplane News Jl p16*35.00*785.00*.35*Wooten, Riley
Woody*1958 Model Airplane News Jn p14*36.00*310.00*.35*Judge, Bill
Fleetwon*1959 American Modeler Fb p18*38.50*440.00*.35*Peru, Bob
Combat King*1959 American Modeler Jn p18*39.00*390.00*.35*Ehling, Frank V.B.
Shark*1959 Flying Models Nv p24*38.00*300.00*.19-.35*Popa, George Jr.
Werewolf*1959 Flying Models Ot p20*32.00*272.00*.29-.35*Scarinzi, Larrry
Com-Bat*1959 Model Airplane News Ap p14*29.00*250.00*.35*Laumer, Keith
Guided Missle*1959 Model Airplane News Ot p28*36.00*315.00*.35*Wooten, Riley
Fleetwon*1960 Air Trails Annl p52*38.50*440.00*.35*Peru, Bob
Scrapper*1960 American Modeler Ag p30*36.50*307.00*.35*Cowart, Jim
Missourian*1960 American Modeler Jl p23*30.00*360.00*.35*Umbright, Gene
Jerkline Special*1960 American Modeler Jn p36*38.50*375.37*.36*Netzeband, Bill F. Jr.
Oklahoma Twister*1960 American Modeler Ot p30*38.00*315.50*.35*Berryman, Carl
Hatchet*1960 Flying Models Ap-My p28*41.00*184.50*.35*Scarinzi, Larrry
Quicker*1960 Model Airplane News Annl p54*36.50*328.50*.35*Wooten, Riley
Swoop*1961 American Modeler Fb p26*34.00*340.00*.35*Carpenter, Bill
Equalizer*1961 American Modeler Jn p25*39.00*362.00*.35*Netzeband, Bill F. Jr.
Kite*1961 American Modeler My p24*35.50*525.25*.35*Mackey, Charles A.
Slingshot*1961 American Modeler Nv p27*40.00*371.00*.35*Mears, Jim
Guided Missle*1961 Model Airplane News Annl p58*36.00*315.00*.35*Wooten, Riley
Voodoo*1961 Model Airplane News Jl p11*36.00*330.00*.36*Wooten, Riley
Arrowhead no.1*1961 Model Airplane News Jl p20*10.00*33.75*.010*Siegel, Bill
Arrowhead no.2*1961 Model Airplane News Jl p20*8.00*31.50*.010*Siegel, Bill
Arrowhead no.3*1961 Model Airplane News Jl p20*10.00*34.00*.010*Siegel, Bill
Little Gem*1961 Model Airplane News Jn p16*10.00*40.00*.020*Danson, Bob
Combat Winner*1962 American Modeler Annl p33*34.00*325.00*.35*Carpenter, Bill
Big Iron*1962 American Modeler Dc p23*38.50*360.00*.35*Berryman, Carl
Russian Combat*1962 American Modeler Sp p24*33.75*247.00*.29*RUSSIAN DESIGN
Voodoo*1962 Model Airplane News Annl p54*36.00*330.00*.36*Wooten, Riley
Arrowhead*1962 Model Airplane News Ja p24*15.50*91.50*.05*Siegel, Bill
Baby Tick*1962 Model Airplane News Jl p26*28.00*182.00*.15*Melhuish, Ross
Turnjacket*1962 Model Airplane News Jl p27*18.00*108.00*.03-.09*Melhuish, Ross
Turncoat*1962 Model Airplane News Ot p24*27.00*216.00*.15*Love, Dick
September Warrior*1963 Aviation Modeler Nv p334*30.00*0.00*.35*Bumstead, R.B.       
Black Widow*1963 Model Airplane News Fb p23*30.00*255.00*.35*Ceriko, John
XA-8*1963 Model Airplane News Fb p28*16.00*96.00*.05*Pancella, Vinc
Demon*1964 Model Airplane News Ag p16*35.00*328.00*.35*Wooten, Riley
Raunchy*1964 Model Airplane News Ap p25*35.00*353.50*.35*Maers, James
Minimum*1964 Model Airplane News Ja p20*24.00*153.00*.05*Maginnis, Ricky
Blitz*1964 Model Airplane News Jl p11*35.00*326.00*.35*Scarinzi, Larrry
Panic*1965 American Modeler Ja-Fb p18*34.00*229.50*.15d*Freebrey, Peter D.

these scans from the magazines are on my Combat CD

Tom Wilk
tawilk36@cpinternet.com
www.cpinternet.com/~tawilk36

My scans are from the model magazines.  The Mid West HORNET probably was a kit and was never published in the model magazines. 

Tom Wilk 

I found the file on his contest  & rules.  The contest was October 14, 1990 and the equipment cutoff date was the end of 1961.  He had a an extensive equipment list that pretty much had a "Voodoo with a G21" max.

There was a good turnout at his contest & guys from Indiana, Illinois, and Michigan probbaly still have the equipment laying around.


Maybe a few informal matches Monday or Tuesday ?