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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Combat => Topic started by: Rich Perry on March 31, 2016, 05:22:30 AM
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I just acquired a set of plans and construction article for the Super satan. I always wondered what the history of these airplanes was as far as the lineage goes. Having the 1/2 A and .15 size sold as kits by Goldberg. Was the jr. ever a serious FAI model, or just marketed to the sport crowd? Also, was there ever a .36 size not super satan? Or was this just the Voodoo? The super is a cool plane, and I do plan to build one. It would seem the design elements pushed performance forward, even though they are more complicated to build than what was seen previously.
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I can tell you that the Super Satan went through development from roughly 1965-67. I witnessed Larry Scarinzi' flights back then on the first iteration , a straight wing, and the second, a tapered trailing edge. Both are for .36 power and the later was published in Model Airplane News( cover shot, too) somewhere around 66-67. Date escapes me; I've got the original magazine somewhere. Larry and Carl Goldberg collaborated and initially had marketing plans which, unfortunately, did not come to fruition.
I built the tapered version in 1967 but , unfortunately it had a very short life.
This is aircraft is an ultra- high performance ship and one need's to be on one's toes when flying it.
At the recent GSCB Vintage Combat Fest, several were flown and displayed.
BTW, Larry at 80+ years old, can still handle one with ease.
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Good stuff Frank, thanks for the info. Could it be the thin wing that could bite you with the design, causing a snap? I never knew, until reading some of Riley's posts here, as to how much Carl Goldberg was involved in combat. I am always fascinated with the history of model designs and what the motivations were for the changes. I am a designer myself, and there is no doubt that the current combat ships I fly had some influence by the Super Satan. As I collaborated with an older Combat pilot, and he talked about how good the SS flew.
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the Jr. satan was never taken too seriously here but it did follow much of the Euro design for diesel fai. Howard told me he won the nats fai once using the Jr. I recently built one because I wound up with a really cool TD .15
The SS was a pretty good flying wing back in the day. I beat my share with voodoo's to put it into perspective, but the ss was one of the better small ships. There is a laser short kit available that might save you some work.
Send pictures!
Ken
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I have Jr. plans on the way. My dad gave me the Jr. kit for my Bday back in 78', but I do not know what happened to it. I am sure he built it, but it never flew. I have a Fox .15 BB I was thinking for it, but I am going to guess that will be kind of heavy. These planes for sure are more for nostalgia than anything. Plus I want to experience them in flight. This is really cool stuff. So glad I stumbled on this website, as all of you guys that experienced this stuff in the day are here to talk about it. Nothing like first person accounts of history. :)
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I'll add my two cents. There was not a plain .36 sized Satan. The Super Satan and the Voodoo are completely different airplanes. Attached are a couple of pictures of possible interest. The picture from the 2015 Vintage combat festival shows 3 different versions of the Super Satan. Larry is holding version 12 in his right hand and if I recall version 9 in his left. Andre is holding Version 12 which was the published version. I'm holding what Larry believes to be Version 5 (notice straight wing) with modifications from 1969. In my left hand is also version 12.
I'm also attaching original plan of version 12. If legible, notes on the original set of plans from 66 to Carl. Larry states items used and potential building techniques on test models and also test pilots. Hey, my pop made the cut!
Also of note, Larry flew my straight wing version on News Years day 2016 and ripped up the sky with it. We were running 10% in it so it was probably going 105-110mph.
Tom
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and
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September 1967
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That is great stuff there! Thanks a bunch. I was going to try to track down that MAN issue.
I love how the plan has notes to Carl that look to be recomendations for a kit. So interesting how these things evolve, and the difference between what was an original design, or actually used in competition, and what was sold as a kit. I saw where Riley mentioned the Voodoo kit was effected by the available box. I have experienced just that. Boxes are expensive, and can blow any profit right out of the equation.
Thanks so much for the post and info. I will definitely be building one now.
Oh, so the wing is just too thin to manage a bladder compartment it would seem. I have used Pci's in the past, but trying to find them now may seem to be tricky.
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I'm lost....I mentioned voodoo but only in context of flying against the SS. They fo-sho are not the same in any respect, except the required engine.
When I was a kid, I wish I could have flown what Riley called a voodoo....the CG kit was a tamed version. Larry's SS was a step up in both performance and required building skills.
Have fun with the build, don't warp it and it'll do fine.
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Ken,
my apologies if you think I was attacking your comment. Read back the original post. Richard asked if there was a .36 sized Satan alas Goldberg or was the VooDoo the 36 sized Satan. LOL! I was more or less answering his question and giving him some of the lineage of the Super Satan.... Sorry for any confusion or am I confused? lol
I actually think looks wise if you put a voodoo style Stabilator on a lil Satan you have a lil voodoo, no?
I know you know your Vintage Combat! #^ #^
Tom
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Very interesting history on Larry Scarinzi's Super Satan. I first saw Larry flying one of these at the National Capital AAA contest at Andrews AFB, Maryland in 1966. I was 15 years old at the time and I will never forget the show that Larry put on when he went up for practice flights. EVERYONE around the combat circle stopped to watch! He was using the Fox 36X BB engine with the old Tornado 8X8 prop and the Fox Blast fuel. I remember him being pleasant to speak to. I did notice however, when he was flying in a match with a streamer the airplane would slow down considerably when doing constant maneuvers. From some past experience trying different props on my own airplanes ( I was flying James Mears "Raunchys" at that time ) I knew that I could blame the Tornado 8X8 prop on this. Still, I knew I had to come up with a design that could at least come close to what Mr. Scarinzi had. I went home and within a week or so I had drawn up the first "Toothpick". The second version of this design was published in the January 1971 issue of American Modeler magazine. My Dad flew the first ( and only ) flight on this first airplane in the Fall of 1966 ( his flying skills were much better than mine ) and he proceeded to fold the wing in half, but not before proving that I had and airplane that could compete with the Super Satan. I changed the leading edge material to a piece of 3/8" square spruce and the outboard wing stayed where it belonged after that. I also was using the Fox 36X BB engine with Missile Mist fuel but went with a Rev Up 9X6 1/2 prop. Top speed was close to 120 MPH, but it would maneuver better pulling a streamer.
Later versions of the "Toothpick" in the mid 1970's when the new Fox MKIII's came out would go 127 MPH and change with 30% nitro fuel and a Top Flite 8 1/2 X 6 1/2 speed prop cut to 8 1/4". I quit building the wood planes and went to the foam wings like everyone else was doing at this time. You could build more planes quicker and they were easier to repair ( when the ground would fly up and hit them occasionally ).
I did meet Mr. Scarinzi at the Toledo Show back in the 1990's but didn't have much time to speak with him. I think I let him know how much of an impression he left on a 15 year old kid at an airplane contest back in 1966. Glad to hear he is still flying.
Dick Tyndall
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I have used Pci's in the past, but trying to find them now may seem to be tricky.
[/quote]
Wal Mart has Gerber Pacifiers.
Save some for us.(lol)
The SS wing is plenty strong if built as the plans indicate. The ply doubler must be a 5 ply laminate , not light ply. The pacifier pod actually adds torsional rigidity spread over a wide area.
As far as your needs for accommodating a pen bladder, couldn't help you there.
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Dick,
Cool story about your toothpick design and its inspiration. I am familiar with it and when I first saw it, I wondered if it was influenced by the SS. I recently came across toothpick plans and am considering building one for this years vintage festival.
Thanks
Tom
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Dick, good hearing from you. When high aspect ratio wings were the rage, I remember a number of guys switching to your Toothpick after having bad experiences with the Winder kit. If built as per the kit plans, the Winder would blow off the outboard wing after a few flights (a LE plywood doubler across the center section fixed this).
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I loved the Toothpick.....I only flew one but it did everything I asked it to. I had stopped flying combat and was starting speed when Bruce Tunberg (60's record holder) told me there was a combat cash contest and did I want to use his Toothpick. I used it to go through the entire sinle elim fast meet. For the final match, I flew Jeff Rein who tells the story better. He had never flown me before and he was nervous to begin with. The Toothpick was superb and to shake Jeff, I put in an entire additional 180 deg wiggle pulling out inverted but going up at 30 deg or so. He had never seen that and stuck his wing while watching the Toothpick fly off. The engine was a st .35 with a front intake 29 crank retimed and a tiny prop.........really fast for back then. I won 50 bucks and a bottle of wine that Bruce drank......we was on a roll!
All oh my Winders shed the wings too.
K
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I am a new member here on this website and have been away from the airplanes for a lot of years. It has been most interesting seeing familiar names on here and catching up on what's going on today. Catching up with old friends from my airplane days has sparked an interest in me wanting to build some airplanes again. The vintage combat get together in the northeast was most interesting to see. I would love to build a couple of "Toothpicks" and attend that meet just to see some of the old airplanes fly again and catch up with people I haven't seen for years. I recently met up with Phil Spillman at a swap meet a few months ago. I had not seen Phil for probably 50 years! I thought he looked familiar. It's a lot of fun to talk about the old days over a nice lunch.
Getting back to the "Toothpick", Dumas was going to kit this just after it was published in the magazine but they wanted to change the way the engine mount was made. I used a solid piece of maple instead of the usual 2 pieces of maple between a block of balsa. I didn't want this changed because this helped keep the front of the airplane more intact in the event of a crash. Dumas said "thanks, but no thanks" and kitted the "Spectrum" instead. I'm still kicking myself today after saying that to them. Nice to hear that somebody other than some of the locals around here built some of the "Toothpicks". Never knew that.
Always nice to hear about other people's history in this hobby. I look forward to seeing something new here when I'm online.
Dick Tyndall
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Please excuse my ignorance here but Dick Tyndall are you the guy who made the double bubble heads for Fox combat engines?
I have never seen a "toothpick" can some one post photos
Just fueling my nostalgia combat plane fettish
Would love to find info on a plane I saw Bob Carver fly at Bladder grabber.... dreamsicl, creamsickle something like that...beautiful wing design
been side tracked lately with getting a Ring Master ready for father son (dad has passed) re-live of 1959 with a Fox 35 powered S-1
have very many new old stock combat kits to copy and semi scratch build and really need to get off butt and cover the Mongoose/Demon(s), and start a few others....raunchy, nemesis, big iron...etc
I scratch built a 1/2a Big Otto to learn some faux silk covering methods from Ken B and Bob M
Larry S Supper Satan is also planned to be in my "hanger"
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Carver had a real fleet of Gene Pape built, then Will Namura built Rotation Stations. They were beautiful and covered with translucent super mono cote. Perfection.
Then, in the 80's Norm McFadden designed his 'Cream sickle" it dominated all of us for sometime. Bob had another fleet built and by Norm's youngest son Jimmy. It paid for a lot of books and all at the U.W. because he didn't work for free.......they were amazingly beautiful.
Bob Carvers inspirations did much for fast combat.
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Someone sent this to me today. http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5342
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Rich
Thank you sir
Crap...more plans and kits than I have years left to model and fly/display
at least Dharma silk is cheaper than polyspan.... BSEG
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hey Fred....how is your silk shrinking? I have difficulties with the Dharma stuff.
K
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I have never used actual silk, just silkspan, which I never plan to use again for an open structure. I am just not nice enough to the stuff! But, and I know some will say it is not traditional, or maybe heavy, but I use the lightweight dacron now for all of my open structures. Goes on with heat, and shrinkable. I use Sig Stix it to hold it down and seal it with dope. I guess it is just like Sig Koverall. Not needing to chase the last bit of performance out of these models now, it is a good option.
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I screwed up the first bottom of a wing...using the white 5 mm stuff had the weave wrong direction... it is on their site that 1% shrink width wise and 8% length wise....made a pretzel of a Big Otto 1/2a bottom
I use thinned Nitrate base three or more coats on the balsa then thinned Butyrate non tautening (Randolf) to stick down the silk
Once I saw (mag glass) direction of the weave and oriented span wise (after I removed the bottom and started over) was a bit loose. Hit it with heat gun thinking still not dry...no joy...Used Randolph tautening on entire wing and in two days was drum tight and no induced warp...well that my old eyes can see.....grin
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Going out now to get some flights on a couple of combat models, the Nimbus and moder 1/2 A Super Attitudinal. We have 70 degree temps here today!
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Man, you guys have really made my day! Other than some of the local guys that I flew with I had no idea that anyone else built any Toothpicks. The picture with the plans in a previous post ( it was in the magazine article ) was taken in September 1969 at the Maryland State Championships AAA contest. I won Open Fast Combat that day and I still have the trophy. It would be cool to build a replica of the plane in the picture and recreate the picture with a much older me holding it.
And yes, I made a lot of double bubble head inserts back in the 1980's for the Fox MKIII's and MKIV's. My hobby business, Virginia Craftsman has been going since 1982. Today I race R/C boats ( gas and nitro ) and make turn fins for hydroplanes and mono hull boats.
The vintage combat meets looks like they would be a lot of fun. I'll have to build some airplanes and give that a go. Nothing like a bunch of old guys hanging around telling each other how good they were..............
Dick Tyndall
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Hi Dick.
Here are some promo's and videos of "Combat Graffiti" that will get ya in the mood. These are all pre Dec 31 1964 models
http://flyinglines.org/kb.graffitipromo.16.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC3bTQPV21k
http://flyinglines.org/graffiti.13.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkJjQq0mgbM&feature=youtu.be
http://flyinglines.org/graffiti.12.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldd_Pz1wOCQ&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMFgEuIPCH4
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When i was a kid i wanted to build a SS but never did, just in the last year and a half i picked up a laser kit SS, plan on building it sometime,the jr satan my dad and i built two of them one with a G-15 but with the fai nemisis boom and elevator and also added another rib to each side, and the one i did was the same except i used a David anderson diesel thinking about building another one as i have a kit for it
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Lazer Works has a parts package for the SS 16.70
*A parts package includes the formers, ribs, and anything on the plans that would have to be cut to a certain shape.
http://lazer-works.com/misc.html
Check out their site. They have a good number of C/L designs listed
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yes, by all means get the short kit. You will need to purchase a set of plans if you don't already have them. This is a VERY worthwhile way of going about the SS
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Curious if anyone out there has used the Lazerworks Super Satan short kit and how it stacks up ; accuracy wise.
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Frank,
My Yellow one is a Lazerworks short kit. It is dead nuts accurate! Matches perfectly with my templates from 1966. /DV
Tom
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Good to know.
THX
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That is nice to know the kits are good. Some of these laser kit companies can be a bit shady. Should be able to make short work of one of these with all of those parts ready to go.
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the "short kit" does not have all parts, but is complete for the parts you need to cut out accurately....booms, ply brace, ribs.
I think a really cool idea (if you have one) is to put a hot .15 in it. The smaller size lends itself to the lighter engine and .015 lines. My plan is to put my Nelson .15 in mine, or maybe an F2D engine.
K
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That is nice to know the kits are good. Some of these laser kit companies can be a bit shady. Should be able to make short work of one of these with all of those parts ready to go.
In my experience you can't go wrong with Lazerworks.
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In my experience you can't go wrong with Lazerworks.
Well, that is all you need really. The ribs would have been the point of contention I believe.
I think I will just throw a Fox .36 on mine for nostalgic reasons, plus the hottest .15 I have is a Fox .15 BB. I never plan to fly this in combat.
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Well, that is all you need really. The ribs would have been the point of contention I believe.
I think I will just throw a Fox .36 on mine for nostalgic reasons, plus the hottest .15 I have is a Fox .15 BB. I never plan to fly this in combat.
Rich :
Speaking for myself(although I know there are others out there who feel the same),I no longer desire to combat match using any of my vintage combat aircraft.
After years of combat wars; I'm now into preservation. Vintage combat ships, when faithfully constructed and in the original finish of the era (silk and dope, etc.) , are some of the most beautiful designs of all model aircraft, ever.
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Where is a good source for silk?
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Rich,
go through this thread. In it, is my recent finished Blitz where I went through my Silk acquisition and Dying procedure
http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/september-20th-middlesexgscb-vintage-combat-fun-fly/
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here ya go Rich.
http://www.dharmatrading.com/
buy the 5mm stuff and if you cannot navigate it, they are very helpful on the phone. They sell dye and it works well. The silk will not shrink the same as the old Esaki stuff we used to use, but it is stronger. It will shrink 1% in the width and 8% in the length so be sure you get the grain running span wise. Since I don't seem to have the skills of some, I use tautening nitrate, covered with Butyrate. If I trim in paint, I use rustoleum and top coat with min-wax poly urethane.
Lots and lots of stinky work, but as was stated, it makes a very nice product that will niggle it's way into your nostalgia.
Ken
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Rich,
go through this thread. In it, is my recent finished Blitz where I went through my Silk acquisition and Dying procedure
http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/september-20th-middlesexgscb-vintage-combat-fun-fly/
Fun to re-watch the video. Octogenarian Larry
Scarinzi flies the Satan @ the 3 minute mark.
Amazin'
Where do I sign up ?
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Bladders
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Combat-bladder-baby-pacifier-free-flight-pressure-fuel-system-/181989953263?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
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BTW, after reading this post I've ordered SS short kit. Thanks for the info!
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Bobby,
if you don't already have the plans....here ya go!
http://www.jitterbuzz.com/manreal/super_satan_03.jpg
ken
ps really nice parts in the kit.
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Thanks Ken!
Bobby,
if you don't already have the plans....here ya go!
http://www.jitterbuzz.com/manreal/super_satan_03.jpg
ken
ps really nice parts in the kit.
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Since we're talking Super Satan, this seems like a good time to share an experience I had with Duke and Larry at the '72 Glenview Nats. I attended the Nats in '72 as an unofficial* "representative" of Fox Mfg. That is, I would offer assistance to combat contestants using Fox products in the form of parts, engine work, pit assistance needed, whatever. I also did demo-flights of a Fox 36 Sport powered Demon to demonstate the abilities of the new, lightweight 36 Sport engine that Duke had released. (I think the Demon and the 36 Sport weighed in at less than 15 oz.)
(* Unofficial in the I was expected to be there but wasn't paid to be there!!!)
Anyway, one of the evenings early in the week was reserved for some test flying of some 36X engine mods. Duke, myself, and Larry Scarinzi were going to be the ones involved in doing this. I think I recall that we used three watches. (Larry would time himself from the inside of the circle and Duke and I from outside and we'd compare the times.)
Now, I must confess that at that time in my life (cocky, thought I had the combat world by the tail) I viewed the Super Satan as "obsolete" compared to the current crop of combat airplanes being flown. (Nemesis, Tyrantuala 2, etc.) After all, that Super Satan article came out in, what, 1967? This was 1972, time marches on. Therefore, I was interested in seeing one fly... but didn't expect a whole lot.
We we three arrived at our makeshift flying field off to the side of the official flying circles. As Duke and I unloaded our stuff from the vehicle, Larry began to retrieve his squadron of Super Satan's.
They were immaculate. If you've never seen a Larry Scarinzi model, you can't imagine how well they are fitted and how beautifully they are finished... and we're talking COMBAT planes! That's just the way Larry is: He builds and finishes them to perfection.
We put the first engine on one of Larry's original Super Satan's, Larry and I fired it off, and with me holding, Larry went out to the handle. Controls checked the signal was given to let'er go... which I did.
MY GOD!!
That thing accelerated and within a half lap it was COOKIN'! I mean SIZZLIN' COOKIN'! I had seen quite a few combat planes fly up to that point, but NEVER one this fast! I had to mentally snap back to the business at hand as Larry flew flat and level during the timing runs. It was indeed movin'... and according to our watches was screaming along comfortably over 120 MPH.
"Wow... it's fast", I thought, "...but with that thin airfoil it ain't gonna' turn worth a flip".
Still flying flat and level, Larry stopped his watch, looked down at it, stuck it in his pocket, and then he pulled the handle...
I'm serious: This thing turned a radius that was truly impressive, and Larry tore the air up with it. As he did, it never sagged, lost speed (that could be seen or heard), and stayed steady as a rock on the end of the lines as he put on an incredible show of flying skill. (Larry was indeed a VERY good flier, and still is!)
Very impressive indeed, and eye opening to me. (Don't believe bench fliers.)
Within minutes there were combat fliers (some of them looked to be in the Senior Class) literally running over to the circle and asking "What the heck was THAT???"
It was with no small amount of pride that I would tell them, "why, it's a Fox36X BB powered Super Satan". (We caused no small stir as we continued our test session as combat fliers, and others, would come up and ask questions/etc.)
However, I digress. The impressive "first flight" finished, it was time to get back to work. As the session progressed, we went through many, many engine swaps/different planes/etc. Long story short: Though the times were impressive, they weren't impressive enough. This was essentially the test session that convinced Duke that he likely needed a major redesign in order to catch Super Tigre. But that's another story.
Toward the end of the session, I was doing something (checking props/engine mount screws/whatever) and Larry asked me "you want to fly it and see what you think?".
Trying to hide my surprise, I said "Sure."
Now this was too cool. I was going to get to fly one of the original (if not THE original, I can't recall) Super Satan prototypes.
We stuffed it full of fuel, lit it off, and I sprinted to the handle. (I was young... sprinting was nothing then!)
"Just wait 'til I wow this crowd with MY flying skills with this thing!" I thought to myself.
Bear in mind, that for the past several flights, I had been flying a much lesser performing engine/plane combination that was very stable (a Demon is a very stable combat plane), and doesn't possess a lot of "snap" (i.e. lightening quick response) to it. Further, I had not be doing a lot of flying that summer, what being busy with work and other things. (In other words, I was very "rusty" in my flying.) But never mind that, it was "SHOWTIME!".
Picking up the handle, I checked the controls... they're good... then the signal to let'er go...
The Satan lept into the air, and I kid you not, it was a good quarter lap ahead of me before I finally caught up to it. My God this thing was FAST!. Catching up to it, I made a couple/three level laps and settled down. Okay... it was time to put on the show.
I brought it around and prepared to snap it into what was to be a figure eight, and then from there I was simply going to reflex/free style fly it. Now, pull the trigger and...
OMG!!! That thing turned so fast it was headed straight for the ground... I yanked down and it snapped back up and started over my head...
What followed was a few frantic seconds of trying to catch up to an airplane that was so far above my then-current abilities it was embarassing. My thought was "oh my God... I'm going to crash one of Larry's planes."
I finally managed to catch up to it, and so shaken was I by this unsettling experience, I leveled out and flew the remaining tank dry.
Mercifully, I glided it in and landed it safely.
How humbling that had been.
Yes, I wish I could have "do-overs" a few months later after I was determined to sharpen up and regain my previous skills as well as make further progress in my flying skills. (Which I did.)
But that night... it was all I could do to hang on to one of Larry's Super Satan's.
As the article said, it was almost like "lightening on a leash"!!!
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Great story Andre! I was with Larry today and of course we talked Super Satan and its evolution. As you know this is my favorite. There is just something about it!
Again very entertaining story!
Tom
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Great story Andre, Although I don't remember the occasion quite as vividly, I transported a half dozen of those planes to the Nats that year. My first Nats. Larry was quite busy at the bike shop in those days so he flew out. Since I only flew one or two events, I had plenty of room. It was huge fun even though I didn't win, or even come close! Profile Carrier. Missed landings. Fox .36xrc, of course. My hand was shaking with excitement. Took a few years but I finally got there! I do remember getting to meet some of the 'real' combat guys at that session. Maybe I saw you fly but just can't recall........ahhh. TS
PS Tom L. has become the LS combat plane historian and achivist. His work really does justice to those designs. Actually, there are several fellows around here, who were the 'kids' in the Fighting UMAC'ers , that turn out some extraordinary airplanes. There may be more but I am thinking of Tom Luciano, Paul Riskala, Frank Imbriaco and, last but not least, Bob Hunt.
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Hi Tom!
Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad you enjoyed my effort to type it!! (I'm getting lazier in my old age!)
Hi 'ya C.T.!
Well, a LOT happened at that Nats. I remember details about some of my experiences... and yet only remember other experiences vaguely. I shared the Duke/Larry/Me experience as best I can remember it. Perhaps you were one of those that walked up on us during that session?
Speaking of the '72 Nats being an epic adventure for me: I met and ate supper with Phil Granderson (he was a ton of fun), got to meet Howard Rush, "The Butcher", and I think I recall also meeting Dan Domino and Frank Imbriaco (though I'm a bit hazy on those two) along with several other "noted and famous" combat personalities that I've forgotten! LOL! Oh yes, met the Bush Brothers (they flew their "Dinosaur"), along with seeing/talking with many other combat personalities of the time: Dick Stubblefield, Carlton Buckstaff, Mike Wheeler... on and on. It was a genuine "once in a lifetime" experience.
The frosting on the entire '72 Nats experience for me was Larry though, pure and simple. That was the beginning of a friendship that lasts to this day.
There are some great guys (and gals) in this hobby.
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Wow! I do enjoy talking with Larry regarding his designs and always end up talking SS. I try to retain as much as possible. Just found out on Sunday that Sterling approached Larry on kitting the SS but he said he was already committed to Goldberg and wouldn't walk away. 6 months later the winder came out. I will continue to ask questions as I really enjoy the conversation and history.
As far as the fighting UMACer kids, all I can say is thank you Tom! To be mentioned in the same sentence as those gentlemen is a true honor!
Thanks,
Tom
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And those are just the guys I know. I'm sure there are others out there who are still at it. One I forgot was Frank Pisz. He came east a couple of years ago. His models are also outstanding! A real gentleman. Maybe when he gets done with his REAL airplane he will have some time to build some more models.
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stunt/combat flier Joe Yau just sent me a picture of his new Blitz , he's getting ready for Combat G.....really fun old stuff.
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(fighting UMACer kids)
I WAS GRABBING SOME HARDWARE WHEN I WAS 13. y1
AL
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I have ordered a couple of parts packs for the SS. I want to have them for the Nostalgia combat class in Tucson in January. Sounds like it would be a fun event, and an excuse to push the builds on these!
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Blitz's are nice
satins are kin
use a Nemesis
if you want to win
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To add to Ken's note
I have one remaining never fired Nelson N36c 2014 vintage engine that will make a Pat Johnston supplied Nemesis short kit and Howard Rush recommended built notes...absolutely cork screw you into the ground with a NOS rev up wood 8x8....grin
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That would be more of a racer than combat model!
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Back to the silk for a moment. Would this be the stuff?
http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/silk/silk-habotai-5mm.html
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Curious if anyone out there has used the Lazerworks Super Satan short kit and how it stacks up ; accuracy wise.
Frank,
Walt Umland made 12 Super Satan kits along time ago. I still have mine. Interested?
Dennis
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To anyone that has built one of these. What is the thickness and placement of any shim required to put under the trailing edge when framing the wing to account for the taper, and keep it straight? The plans have no info on this. Thanks.
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Hey Rich,
there should be a diagram of a wedge on the plan. It tapers on two planes. each one goes under the trailing edge at the rib location. I can pull the plan and post a picture later this evening if that will help.
Tom
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Thanks Tom. My plan does not have a section showing this. Unless I did not look in the right spot! ;D
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Rich,
I made the wedge and hardened the rails with CA. Then placed a piece of wood in the wedge ,sanded to shape, then cut in increments labeling as shown.
I'll be glad to help further, if needed.
Tom
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"Back to the silk for a moment. Would this be the stuff?
http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/silk/silk-habotai-5mm.html"
that's the stuff. Ive had good luck with thai as mentioned previously.
Good Luck!
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Thanks for the pics of the plans. Mine are certainly different.
Could you give me the dimensions of that wedge block that you made? (thickness at ends, length, width etc. ) That looks like a good idea making it one solid length.
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Frank,
Walt Umland made 12 Super Satan kits along time ago. I still have mine. Interested?
Dennis
How complete is the Umland kit?
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Rich,
I made my wedge/jig 12" long giving me shims that were (3/4")x (1-3/8")x (x-taper). you can make it any length you want that is divisible by 16. For instance, I have templates of my fathers from 1966 and a little package of shims. he made his shims 1/4" wide. I made it longer just thinking I would have more contact under the trailing edge. As you can see Larry suggests 4 or 8 inches. which yields a shim of either a 1/4 or 1/2 inch. Also, he states that the side rails can be both 3/32-0 with nil effect. I made mine the 64th different just because I was trying to be absolutely dead on.
Hope I'm making sense!!
Tom
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I guess I do not understand. How much does it taper from root to tip? I do not see anywhere where it tells you the thickness of the shims, at a certain location, to support the trailing edge at the right height.
I have an idea of cutting a foam core, and then using the shuck to build the wings on. I would fiberglass it, to protect it from glue. Otherwise, I do not think I stand a chance at building this thing straight the way it was originally done.
Interesting I did see in the notes that he had an idea of building in a slight warp to help at launch. I am of the opinion that is not a good idea!
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If you can get one of Walter Umlands kits, go for it. The Sweet Sweep was easy build following his instructions. I would imagine the Super Satin would be like wise. H^^
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Rich,
1. lets make the thing I called Super Satan wedge/jig. This is just a tool to make the shims.
A. take a piece of 1/8" lite ply cut 2x12 inches .
B. mount 2 rail pieces of 3/32" sq.x12" mount them 1-3/8" apart
C. Block sand the rails so one end is 3/32 from ply and the other is flush with plywood. In other words you have a constant slope from 3/32 to zero on 12 inches.
D. seal/harden the rail so you can use it as a guide rail to sand a piece of 3/32
2. making the shim blank
A. tack a piece of 3/32 x 1-3/8 x 12 piece a balsa to the jig you just made.
B. Block Sand to a wedge shape using the guide rails.
C. pop off the piece of balsa. you now have a piece of wood 1-3/8x12 piece of wood that is 3/32 on one end and 0 at the other.
D. take a pen and make lines every 3/4". you should end up with 16 shims.
E. label them as noted O 12 I12 O11 I11...... O for outboard, I for Inboard.
F. Now cut your 3/4" lines and you will end up with 16 perfectly tapered shims.
G. Place each shim under the trailing edge sheeting at the corresponding rib.
It sounds like a lot but you could do this in under a half hour.
Yes, that is also an idea of making a lost foam fixture. Bob Hunt and I have been discussing making one.
He has made numerous killer cradles already.
my Blitz and Straight wing Satan were made in them. Actually they were completely framed less tail booms and pacifier pod with never pulling them out of the cradle. Definitely a faster way to go, if you were to mass produce these planes.
Hope this helped!
Tom
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Ok Tom, I got it now! Thanks a bunch.
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Color going on it now.
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Nice job.
Yellow paint coming? (lol.)
Don't think I ever saw a different color...
The L.S influence on the East coast, ya know ?
IMO, the SS is arguably the nastiest looking combat ship of all time.
Good Luck and be on your toes when you fly it.
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It is gonna be red. With a black devils tail like the Jr. What in particular would I need to look out for when flying? I am gonna start with a choked down speed limit set up, then open it up later and add faster prop.
The thing is so small, it has to be fast. Especially with this Fox mk IV I have installed!
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Oh, no bad habits.
Plenty stable. In the M.A.N. Super Satan article , Scarinzi penned that when maneuvering, it as though the SS bounces off a rubber wall.
If you haven't flown a model this fast, it'll surprise you with how quickly it can change direction with a really hot mill.
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Well that is good to hear. I used to fly modern Fast with Nelson .36's, so I am used to going really fast, and turning tight. I think one of the things I look forward to the most is experiencing the difference from then and now. Thanks for all of the info. Should have her ready to fly by this weekend.
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Well, I hope the red is OK, even though it is out of tradition. THink I will do the next one the same scheme except yellow and black.
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Hi Rich:
The Super Satan relies on being built straight and true, being carefully balanced, and light weight to make the tight turns. As I recall, the later model Fox "MK" series are noticeably heavier than the Fox 36X type engine that the Super Satan was designed for. Therefore, your C/G will be farther forward (nose heavy) and your wing loading will be higher. Both factors that will affect its turning. The result will be that it will not perform as good as an original Super Satan... but it will be very, very FAST with the "MK" series engine on it.
Best of luck and have fun!
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Rich, you should move the hole for the pacifier to the center of the pod and keep it the same distance to the leading edge. The way you have it it will put to much side persure on the bladder when you fill it up.
Al
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Your right Al, I will move the hole. I was not thinking about it really, and just placed it where it showed on the plans.
I always equated that these combat planes are like balancing something on the head of a pin. The right size, engine, balance, nose/tail moments. When it all comes together it is sweet. I am sure it will not be possible to experience the perfect SS with my set up, but it is the engine I have, and I doubt this plane, or my next one will ever see a match. If it does, it will just be a mellow nostalgic event. I may just be content with having this thing on my wall. But I do plan to fly it. This weekend hopefully.
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Rich :
Your Satan looks neat and will be a great performer. Red looks terrific,too.
Too bad Larry doesn't use a computer. He'd get a big kick out of what goes on here.
Good Luck and report back !
Frank
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Very Cool! Man, you put that together quick!
Best of luck with it!!
Tom
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...absolutely cork screw you into the ground....grin
LL~ LL~
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Well, I hope the red is OK, even though it is out of tradition. THink I will do the next one the same scheme except yellow and black.
The wing looks great. I've never built a SS but now may just do that.
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I just ordered 2 "parts kits" for the SS from Lazer Works to add into the, getting longer and longer, building que for this winter or next
At $16.70 per kit I suppose all that is in the kit are the ribs
Now off to find a full sized plan the one from this thread does not enlarge and still be able to read the notes
http://www.lazer-works.com/
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http://www.controllineplans.com
Go here as he has them listed and he is great with delivery. H^^
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Here is a pic of the parts laid on the plans. You actually get everything that is cut to a shape. You will need sheet stock for sheeting, and strip stock. The wing spar and leading edge. Also the engine mount parts. Maple and such. (if you need maple let me know, I have a bunch) But the balsa nacelle is provided. The kit is a great deal. I kinda wonder if it would be worth it for him to offer a Voodoo? Also, that nice SS logo is provided (the Satan head I got from Brodak).
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So I moved my paci hole. I surely would have had to do this at some point. I located these nice rubber grommets at the local hardware store to clean up these bladder exit holes. I use them on my 1/2 A's and speed limit planes. Keeps the covering from tearing. I am not sure I can pump 5 minutes worth of fuel in there, but then again, I am not sure I want to!
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Here is a pic of the parts laid on the plans. You actually get everything that is cut to a shape. You will need sheet stock for sheeting, and strip stock. The wing spar and leading edge. Also the engine mount parts. Maple and such. (if you need maple let me know, I have a bunch) But the balsa nacelle is provided. The kit is a great deal. I kinda wonder if it would be worth it for him to offer a Voodoo? Also, that nice SS logo is provided (the Satan head I got from Brodak).
A voodoo kit would be awesome! I saw they have the Von Lopez matador kit. I will be ordering that in the near future!
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WOW!...what a great deal...I suspected for $17 a lot less...but a good deal... now I am much more impressed with the parts count Vs cost
I have a very comprehensive stock of contest and other grades of balsa stock as well as hard wood for engine mounts and fair selection of various Ply woods
I am hoping combat planes get established in Las Vegas and that some day Bob Mears holds a nostalgia event of some sort
Thanks for the reminder on Baxter...I have a bunch of plans from that service and they are all very good
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Got the maiden flight on the SS today. Flies good. Needs to be trimmed some, as it does not turn as much as I would like. Move CG aft and possibly increase elevator travel.
Interesting to compare a modern 1/2 A design's size to the SS. Things have certainly changed since the mid 60's.
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more
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How come I can't get some one that pretty to hold my planes?? :) Glad to hear the SS is working. The little foamy looks like an awful lot of engine off set. H^^
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How come I can't get some one that pretty to hold my planes?? :) Glad to hear the SS is working. The little foamy looks like an awful lot of engine off set. H^^
I'll hold 'em for ya doc!
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I love the Captain Spaulding shirt.
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We are big fans of that genre of movie. Tried to get the lovely April flying my little Akromaster, but she got dizzy. She was a real trooper launching the SS. The noise does kind of scare her.
I may mess with removing some side thrust from the Super Attitudinals, but they are working very well right now.
Good day, the combat gods sent a Fox .36 X from the heavens. So I bolted it up and it fits perfectly. The balance is better, and the all up weight is 18.2 oz. ready to fly with prop. Is that a good weight? It would seem to be OK, especially for all of the colored dope I used! Maybe it was the airbrush that helped to keep the weight down? Anyway, I think I will have a better flying plane now regardless.
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Rich,
18.2 is pretty good. That's about where mine were. they gained a little weight. Larry's are super light in the 15-16.5 range. He could really build light and his planes are gorgeous.
Tom
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This thread got me to order two "Parts packs" from lazer works and the plans from Barry Baxter and yesterday both arrived
I must say to date this is the best done and Cheapest short kit and plans I have acquired.
I am much impressed with the quality and high (46) parts count of each "Parts pack" (AKA short kit) for a mere $16.70 per kit
Looks like all needed is a LE, TE, and one spar wood...Not sure cuz just a quick glance on the plans but I think Sig MFGs pre-shaped LE stock will work with a little adapting/sanding
Too many builds ahead of it so will be a while before I get to these...
I am not really looking forward to making the TE alignment shims as small and precise as it looks like they need to be
But I do have a needle bearing Fox 36 with BG innerds for one of them
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Fred,
I got my leading edge and spars from Sig. I bought extra so I could select the straightest one.
Tom
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I used straight square stock for my LE. I drew a center line down the length for reference, and used my trusty low angle block plane to shape it. Finished with course paper in a block. Made short work of it, and allowed me to select very good balsa for this critical item.
The other wood you need is 1/16th for the sheeting. Over the bladder compartment and center of wing to tips.
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So the weight thing got me curious. And, seeing as I now have one of those hi-tech digital scales, I drug out my Super Satan and weighed it. As for particulars: I used translucent Monokote on the wings, and many coats of clear dope followed by yellow dope on the nose/tail booms/stab. It's powered by a 36X NB with an APC prop. I weighed it with a pacifier tank inside the pod.
Super Satan: 17.55 oz.
I then weighed my 36X NB powered Demon, same criteria as above except a pen bladder-type tank installed in the tube.
Demon: 16.9 oz.
Lastly, weighed my combat cat: 18.1 oz.
I recall routinely ending up with 16 oz ready to fly Demons back in my silk n' dope days... but back in those days I could shop and be more selective about the wood. Given the dismal hobby shop presence (lack of) in my region, I no longer have that luxury.
So... I realize this post contains is very weighty subject... but it's in keeping with some of the things that's been discussed!
All fer now.
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Forgot to mention that included in the weights on both the Demon and Super Satan is the fact that they both have about 3/8ths ounces of lead on the their tail booms to bring the C/G back for better turning.
All fer now!
Andre
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Andre,
They are both great weights. Mine pictured originally was, if I recall, 18.2oz. After being stuffed twice she has gained a few..... Originally, I came in a little heavy for two reasons. 1. I used 8mm silk, now I know better to go with 4.5 or 5mm. 2. I urethaned the whole plane. Next one will just be urethane center section. This one is getting a bit long in the tooth so I'm thinking new build over the winter.
I'm posting this because I just bolted on my newly refurbished LS Tuned 36xBB for next weeks Vintage combat festival. We are cranking up the Nitro this year!
Tom
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"I'm posting this because I just bolted on my newly refurbished LS Tuned 36xBB for next weeks Vintage combat festival. We are cranking up the Nitro this year!"
Yo, Tommy... go get 'im!!
Andre Mingliano
(Sigh. I'll be with you guys in spirit, if not presence. :'( )
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I flew with Dick while I was in the Air Force. We were both competing for places on the USAF Model Airplane Team. Flew several Toothpicks. Good to see him still alive and well.