I know I may be starting a fire here, but I was wondering if there would be major opposition to flying an electric powered combat model in the Speed Limit event.  The power-system would be fairly simple to do and there would be only a minor weight penalty, but the 75 mph speed wouldn't be hard to get.  The 5 minutes would be fairly easy as well.

Things to consider for safety would be:

1.) Shutoff to main battery power when lines are cut(centrifugal switch)
2.) Safety wire motor.
3.) Safety wire Battery.

I don't see anything else that would have to be any different than an .25 FP or .25 LA powered model than that.  Motors are available for less than $25, controllers for $30-$40, and 3S packs for less than $30.  It would be fairly cheap to do.

Would there be any opposition to this??

Now you might ask why would I go through the trouble?  My son loves combat.  We currently fly electric RC foamy combat.  I have been trying to get him to fly CL and he isn't interested until I mention combat.  I have not flown much CL combat, but have always enjoyed watching it.  The speed limit stuff interested me quite a bit.  I have a ton of electric stuff here and could be airborne by the weekend with some 1/2A sized and Speed limit stuff.  (Note:The 1/2A stuff would be very easy to do and even cheaper.)  We wouldn't be ready to compete this year, but if there wasn't a bunch of opposition to the idea, I would love to fly (get our butts handed to us) next season.

Any thoughts?

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana   

It is in the nature of CL combat that small, very sharply made, direction changes are the way to collect multiple cuts per attacking pass, if the target is unable to jink away in as equally quick a manner.  This puts a heavier model in a serious disadvantage.  While any IC engine is the typical rule, the majority (in my experience) are from the .15 to .25 glow engine class, weighing from 4 1/2 to 7 1/2 Ounces, plus the fuel system, which typically is a bladder in a thin walled tube, filled with 3 1/2 Ounces of fuel that weighs about an Ounce per Ounce. 

I would imagine the combination of batteries and motor for an electric that could go 75 would be heavier than that.  I may be wrong, of course, won't be the first time.

The whole reason speed limit combat exists:  NO SHUTOFF REQUIRED.

Question: How many of these electro-jobs can you afford to crash?

Well, we really beat the crap out of our foamy electric combat R/C jobs and haven't had an equipment failure yet.  With the prop savers available, bent shafts are very rare.  The total power system cost would be about what you can buy a new LA 25 for, so really don't know that cost will be too much of an issue.  The ESC's will be buried in the wing and should stay well protected.  The real advantage to an electric powered SL model would be no learning curve for my son and making a bladder tank 25 run.  I have every bit of confidence that I could do it, but I want a more plug and play approach for his first attempt. 

What wing loadings do you typically shoot for on a speed limit model?  The electric power system would be turning an APC 8x6 "E" prop and produce over 55 ounces of thrust.  What weight are you seeing in a ready to launch speed limit model?

Thanks for all the great info!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana     

Speed Limit is a local event, with limits of 70, 75, or 80, depending on where you fly.  Also, there's some wiggle room in the with/without streamer thing.  A few  places actually time 'em.  More often, if they're close in the pre-attack laps, that's close enough.

Bottom line: It's not all that technical.  Just bring something that turns, goes little over the limit, and you don't mind losing it. 

Speed limit is the "second event" for a lot of the flyers around here.When our front line F2D stuff gets rebuilt or crumpled we stick a .25 on the front add some weight(13 gr.) to the tail and a large fender washer to the outboard and go put it out of it's misery.Some of the local contests feature some very vintage ...eer crappy airframes.Old slows ,fast planes ,flight streaks ,F2D's with unmatched inboards and outboards,and anything that sort of runs.A lot of it don't work that well.Some of those planes are in my garage.The brothers Mackenzie took it a way too seriously a few years ago.Pat took some Thunder Tiger .25's ,shortened the case and crank ,put a tapered prop driver and internal threaded prop nut(ala' F2D) on a plain bearing sport engine.Probably the most high tech sport .25's in history.Things have been rather dull the last few years ,electric power will at least bring back some new ideas.What I'm trying to say is you don't need the best airplane to compete around here. Just don't fly Pat and Ivan.

Brad LaPointe

Brad,

I could see that speed limit would be a second event for many.  It is however more attractive to us as beginners because F2D would be a bit steep of a learning curve.  I would love to fly F2D, but my son might be ready to fly a SL next year after he wears out our 1/2 A Combat kitten trainer.  (Man those things can take a beating!!!!)  I don't know how long the black widow will last.  I might put one of our electric combat motors on it with (2) cells and see how it holds up. 

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Brad,

Thanks for all the information.  I would like to get a few together.  I might be able to go to the Michigan state meet this year and could have a couple up there maybe to demo, or hell just go out and see how long I last!!  LOL  It ought to be a hoot!!  We'll see how it works out.  4 minutes would be better because the batteries would definatly last that long.  Might even change what prop I use to get more thrust.

I am sure that my boy would enjoy seeing his old man getting his head handed to him.  It would be nice though for him to see CL combat in action.  The videos are cool, but to be there is a whole different experience.  I am sure that Big Art (my grandfather) would enjoy the comedy of seeing his stunt flying grandson getting beat up by some combat folk.  This sounds like way too much fun!!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

What you need for speed limit is a setup that will go 75 MPH for 2 minutes, then 85 MPH for one minute, then back to 75 for one minute, and finish the final minute at 80.  That way, you could be legal through the early minutes when do the timing, get your cuts in the third minute, and be back legal when they make you level off for a second speed check.  The final surge is insurance. 

If you get that working, I'll take three.

Obviously, electric works OK for RC.  It seems to me that the line drag in CL eats up a lot of energy, thus electric CL has been less than successful to date.

Pulling at set of .018" x 60' lines at 75 MPH for 4 or 5 minutes might be something of a challenge.  Archie has a lot of skeels.  We'll see if he can do it and still keep down to manouvering weight.

Archie-

If you don't get it together (or even if you do) this year, consider bringing it to Des Moines in the spring.  We have Speed Limit (75 mph) combat - usually get four or five rounds flown.  We also have very high quality stunt competition (in Pampa classes, P40, Old Time, and Classic) and Navy Carrier (also with electric allowed events).

I see nothing in the rules we use (for Speed Limit Combat) that would preclude an electric powered entry.  And if you get any static just see me - I'm the CD     

Mike A

Paul,

I certainly understand the outlet of old airframes, but know I have no combat airframes.  I would have to start from scratch.  The whole intent for me to do this was to get my son involved in controline.  Plus, I have always wanted to try combat.  My only combat match was at Sig with a Skyray 35 and it was over pretty quick when I pancaked after some less than graceful combat and my pit couldn't get the motor restarted.

There is no doubt it will be a challenge to do this.  Towing 60' of .018" lines will really test the system.  If there is anything that this system will offer is consistancy.  Our trials in Stunt so far have been successful. 

I might get one together this year.  I have a 1/2A in the works to use the E-combat R/C power systems I have on hand.  I want to see what the effect of towing the streamer is.  I have plans for an FAI ship and plan to use the initial model. 

We'll see how it goes!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

 

John,

Glad to hear that you saw the E-Vector.  I really think that the Brodak SC motor has quite a bit of power.  It also has a 5mm shaft which would make it a bit more crash resistant that the 4mm shafts on the Turnigy motors I had in mind for combat.  The Turngy motors are $25 though.  

I have had thought of even using a Pheonix controller with the governor to balance the run through the 4-5 minute match.  It would also help to maintain maneuver speed, but you would loose the advantage of speeding up when your own streamer gets shorter because the governor would maintain the rpm and flight speed would be constant.  THe whole trick would be to find a motor that would maintain the required RPM for the match.  And of course stay out of the ground and on your contestants tail instead of the other way around!!

By the way, no Skunk works here.  Anything we have done and are going to do is no secret.  Just ask!!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

  While I currently do not fly this event (Speed limit combat), I have been drafted into being ED  of it in several contests.  I would STRONGLY advise all who fly in it and ESPECIALLY those who run aor assist in running this event to read carefully Paragraph 3.3 on page CLB-2 of the control line Combat section of the current AMA Rule book.
  Also AT ANY TIME the ED determines that a plane MAY be exceeding the established speed limit, he MAY require the planes to level off for a timing .

  Bigiron