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Author Topic: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?  (Read 2776 times)

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« on: June 27, 2017, 07:34:03 AM »
Hi Folks

One of the things I learned with the Electric Combat demo at Brodak was how really good the Spectra lines work on that class of bird.  We have a Rule Proposal for Stunt to allow Spectra Lines, and I want to add to my experience base.  I have a spool of 65# line and am practicing my knot tying.  At Brodak I saw Spectra all over the Speed Limit event, but did not take any close looks at the set-ups - thus my question.

Mike Londke let me borrow his 1/2A lines & handle with the continuous line set-up and only loops on the end of the lines; getting "identical" line lengths came naturally.  Mike Stinson let us use a pair of his Brodak (Sig) handles set-up with continuous line using the screw-clamp set-up.  I also liked winding the lines directly onto the handle when we were finished.  However I did not see what folks are using in larger sizes.

Could you comment on what kind of handle you are using, whether you use two discrete lines (and how you tie them to near-identical lengths) or whether you use a single continuous line system.  If continuous line, please describe how you set neutral.  Please post pix!


I am currently using (with metal lines) almost all hard point handles with a varying length clips for setting neutral.  These rely on having discrete lines tied off to accurate lengths and a box of various length line clips to set neutral.  I am pretty sure I will not ever be able to tie Spectra lines accurately enough, besides it seems like a lost opportunity to fall back to the 1940's hard point technology.  (NO WAY I will ever use an EZ-Just again!)  I have a incomplete handle design in CAD right now; it is intended to use continuous line and has adjustable spacing but have not settled on a neutral adjustment scheme yet.

THANK YOU in advance for your help!

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 02:17:30 PM »
           I don't know of any flyers using a continuous loop. Phil Cartier  has a tutorial on how to properly tie the lines on a 8x11 sheet of paper. He usually hands them out at the contests and he's posted it on here. Phil's knot allows one to tie a loop without slipping. A line clip can be easily attached onto the end. The 25 size engines use 100# test and the 1/2A stuff uses 30#. Sport 1/2A can use lighter.  Seeing that most of our combat stuff has button bell cranks, we only need line clips on the handle end. When making lines, anchor the lines to a point and at the opposing ends, make a Sharpie mark on your lines where you want the knot to end. Just fold the start of the knot on that Sharpie mark with both line sets and they should finish out close enough.

Offline mike londke

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 09:00:09 PM »
Dennis, I tried to use a continuous loop set up on my speed limit stuff with 100lb test and quickly found out there was really no good way to do it. Same set up as the 1/2A handle, but the nylon tubes I was using bent and dug into my fingers pretty bad.Then I tried carbon fiber tube, it was better but the spectra line split the tube after 3 or 4 flights. I then tried brass tubing but it became apparent that even after smoothing the ends it would fray the line quickly. I'm sure you could do it with a larger handle like a Reyco with the overhang it affords, but I like smaller line spacing for combat. So I am currently using a cabled handle that has about 3" of adjustment with 2 looped spectra lines and connectors at the handle. Its easy enough to make lines within adjustment range of the handle. For 1/2A the continuous line works great. I was not successful in my attempt in translating it to larger models but would love to see others solutions.
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Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 06:49:14 AM »
Ken & Mike - THANKS for feedback. 

I have been thinking I could bury a couple threaded inserts in the back of the handle then use 4-40's with rubber faced washers to clinch the lines.  Think I could use 2-3 screws and get a dependable clinch without damaging the line.  Of course if the line WAS damaged the failure mode would be pretty darned ugly!

Another option would be a tie-off post in the middle like Mike's 1/2A handle (and undoubtedly others); a few wraps around the post for coarse adjustment should keep the line from sliding.  Still have to rely on switching out line clips at the airplane end for fine adjustment.


Meanwhile, I keep practicing my knot tying, watching videos & other animations.  I use safety-thong cord so I can see what I'm doing!  I think I could tie a line set within 1/2" or so which is would not be completely out of the park relative to traditional handles - with a hard point I could use clips with largest differential lengths at the handle end.  Also think I can tie either Phil's knot loop (easy!) or a Uni knot with a regular brass thimble in the end to facilitate line clip change outs for hard point handles.

Gotta stop thinking and start doing!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 07:22:35 PM »
The idea of running the flying lines through the handle is a bad idea regardless of the lines.  Dacron, steel or fish line.  Too much flexing of the same line at one point.  Flying lines basically just go straight with no flexing at all.   There was a contraction called a "laced bellcrank" where a continuous stranded leadout went through the bellcrank.  Obviously this didn't last long.

A continuous flying line might be OK for a plastic RTF with a life cycle in the low single digits.

If you think a hard point handle is an advantage on your stunter, go for it.  For most flyers an adjustable handle with heavy-duty leadouts works just fine.
Paul Smith

Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 08:06:35 PM »


       Dennis

            I've gone over to hard point handles and Spectra lines. Spectra lines, in my opinion, are like quadcopters; they're here to stay. The two issues with them is accurate handle adjustments when using two separate lines, and knots. A Moran line clip bender from Lee Machine Shop easily solved the handle adjustability problems. How to tie equal line lengths with which knot is ongoing. Each time I tie set I come up with a different knot. Rather than loop ends, I tie #3 split rings (from the tackle shop) on the ends. I've found that two fixed points (nails) to slip the ring onto and tie them off gives accurate results. The first end is free with whatever knot you like. To tie the second end to the desired length, I do a double wrap around the ring and tie it off hard with a square knot, then back up the square knot with an AMA recommended knot. I then carefully singe the loose end to keep it from fraying.

          The yellow handle is a Sullivan with the cable removed. I used it in speed limit combat at Brodak's with 100# test Spectra. The two serarate lines were exact lengths and the different length clips were used to compensate for the handle bias.

          The Tom Hampshire handle is my Stunt handle with 65# test Spectra lines.

Ara - anxiously awaiting the legalization of Spectra for Stunt

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 07:09:47 AM »
OK the message is pretty consistent & clear - and I THANK YOU for your guidance. 

I am going to focus on learning how to tie discrete lines properly.  Likely it is just a case of using the right set-up and paying attention to best practices.  I think either an eyelet or a ring (Ara's last pix) are a good idea when changing out line clips for a hard-point set-up so I will do that too.  I have the Moran clip bender, thought occurs that the first pair of clips (at the handle end) should take out any differences in line length and the second set (at the airplane end?) will take care of the neutral setting.

BTW, Gander Mountain is going out of business and they have good mark-downs on everything.  Have been buying line there at 25% off, but they mostly have only dark green, dark brown or camo line in my local store.  If that will work, you might be able to score a discount on brand name lines at a local store...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline phil c

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 05:38:39 PM »
I used a home made handle with an internal bellcrank kind of adjustment.  no line clips, the lines were fed through a nylon eyelet and hooked over monoline button the adjuster.  plus or minus 1/4 in. adjustment.  It worked just fine with no wear ever on the lines.

i did try it on an F2D, but the lines, one or the other, fatigued from bending after 3-4 flights.  Spectra lines have a nearly infinite fatigue limit.

As far as knots got, i talked to the district VP at Brodaks.  The AMA tech committee is insisting on a better knot that the figure eight on a bight i've been peddling.  They are proposing using the same knot, but after first doubling over the line and tying the knot with the doubled line, ending up with a doubled up loop that will always break the line in the middle , instead at the knot.  A very good idea actually.  Getting a full 100lb line strength on a combat plane is a very good thing with much less worry about a badly tied knot forcing an understrength break.  The only downside is you'll need to get a small crochet hook to tie it easily.
phil Cartier

Offline CircuitFlyer

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 09:49:00 PM »
To lessen the chance of a fly away, if one ops for a single continuous line be sure the handle clinch point can pass a pull test on one line only.  I learned this the hard way.  Luckily it ended without too much carnage.
Paul Emmerson
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Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2017, 06:22:18 AM »

      CORRECTION:

             Reply #5 - The wooden handle is from Tom Morris.

      Ara

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2017, 10:06:48 AM »
          Phil, that makes no sense at all. Out of all the matches that's been flown over the past several years using that knot, I have never witnessed or heard of that knot failing. So why change it? I myself am usually involved in line wraps, mid airs, etc. , NEVER has the knot failed. The failures always occurred at the leadout guide due to fraying. This is why most of us have been flipping the lines end for end. Of course some of us have taken the route to use ceramic eyelets to prevent this, but again NO failed knots. I suppose after the pull test were going to have knot inspections. It sounds to me like someone has their head up their ass once again.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:45:13 AM by kenneth cook »

Offline dave siegler

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 10:39:57 AM »
what about sleeving the lines like kite guys do?  Then you can tie almost any knot
Dave Siegler
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Offline Dave Edwards

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2017, 05:34:21 PM »
Can sleeves be used on our small diameter lines?  Send pix and do some testing...

Offline dave siegler

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2017, 05:10:39 AM »
Dave,  I am going to do this.  I have a friend who is into kits and builds his own lines out of spectra fishing line.

He is pretty frugal guy and males all of his own stuff. 

He uses small diameter paracord (paracoed 95) with the center stand pulled out as a sleeve. 

The Kite guys then use simple overhand knots to make loops, and claim nearly full strength.   

I have some on order.

What would a test samples and data look like?

5 one fut sections loaded till they break?     


I need a little help with that. 
Dave Siegler
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Offline mike londke

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Re: Special Handles with Spectra Lines?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2017, 10:49:19 AM »
Larry Davis has been sleeving his Spectra lines for a few years now. He uses the same stuff the kite guys use. I have several sets he made for me. I'll have them at the Nats if anyone wants to look at them.
AMA 48913  USPA D-19580  NRA Life Member  MI State Record Holder 50 way Freefall Formation Skydive  "Don't let the planet sneak up on you"


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