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Author Topic: Spectra lines - braided or solid?  (Read 2547 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« on: December 16, 2021, 08:00:10 AM »
Getting ready to try my first set of Spectra lines and was wondering if they are braided line or solid and how do you get the kind we are using?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2021, 08:07:42 AM »
Getting ready to try my first set of Spectra lines and was wondering if they are braided line or solid and how do you get the kind we are using?

Best,    DennisT
https://www.amazon.com/PowerPro-21100500100E-50-100-G-Spectra/dp/B0000AUW09/ref=asc_df_B0000AUW09?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80470581759022&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584070141141603&psc=1

I used 65lb but this is enough for most planes.

ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2021, 12:56:19 PM »
               The link Ken posted shows the Power Pro. Most important is the US flag on the box. If purchasing from Ebay, use caution as this is sold in the same box made in China. In addition, seeing you posted in the combat section, most of us are using 100 lb test for .25 size combat.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2021, 05:24:15 PM »
Thanks for the link. I will be using these lines for smaller 20 size ships less than 40oz. Do you use an eyelet to terminate and wrap around like we do for braided cable then terminate with the AMA knot?

Best,     DennisT

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2021, 09:41:01 PM »
Thanks for the link. I will be using these lines for smaller 20 size ships less than 40oz. Do you use an eyelet to terminate and wrap around like we do for braided cable then terminate with the AMA knot?

Best,     DennisT
When I used them I tied directly to the line clip.  No eyelet.  Use the preferred knots.  This is very slippery line and it will pull through a knot if tied wrong.  I believe they are using a Palomar.  There is enough material here about knots in threads going back nearly 10 years to satisfy a Boy Scout.  One experience I had was not pulling the lines hard enough then letting them sit overnight.  One of the knots loosened and would have slipped in flight if I had not noticed it.  I am not sure that Spectra lines are actually better for PA than the new thinner brass coated ones but they are cheaper!

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2021, 05:20:33 PM »
I started researching Spectra line and came across a few interesting sites. The first gives line diameters for different brands at different #tests. http://www.mels-place.com/Mels-Place.com-2019-Fishing-Line-Diameter-Comparison.pdf

Also looked at some FINS XS line that is 8 strand line that is supposed to be very smooth, round and strong. What brands have you guys used? Ken suggested the Palomar knot direct to the line clip, anyone have other suggestions?

Best,     DennisT

Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2021, 10:21:04 AM »
[quote  Do you use an eyelet to terminate and wrap around like we do for braided cable then terminate with the AMA knot?

Best,     DennisT


Dennis

    I've been using Spectra lines exclusively for a few years and use the eyelets shown below as terminations. I prefer hard point handles and find that tying to eyelets allows me to get the lengths almost exact. I use Jim Lee's clip bender to make different length clips for adjustments when needed.

    There's some disagreement on the forum as to the use of eyelets. Some folks have had them fail but the #3 Cabella rings are rated at 35 lbs. and have held for me. I had the lines break once and the rings held. Interestingly, the smaller and larger rings are rated at 40lbs.

     My knots change every time I make a set of lines because I can never remember how I tied the previous set.

Ara
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 06:13:05 AM by Ara Dedekian »

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2021, 08:32:21 AM »
Dennis T:

THANKS for the chart from Mel's Place. BTW, just the PowerPro Maxcuatro sizes are shown here: https://www.powerpro.com/content/powerpro/northamerica/us/en/homepage/PDP.P-MAXCUATRO.html

FINSfishing.com has sizes charted for several of their braids, they have numerous brands, none of them called "control lines"!

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2021, 11:12:27 AM »
Dennis A,
Thanks for the PowerPro site. They seem to have really great stuff. The line diameter is considerably thinner than most others for the same #test line. I also like that it is available in the 150 yd spool length, only thing I don't like is the colors available - green, yellow, moss. I would prefer blue but can get over it.

In reading the reviews one thing they say is that the breaking strength is very close to the rated number (i.e. within 0 - 10%, 30lb test breaks at 30 -33lbs), most others have a larger margin. This should still be OK, just need to make sure the 10x model weight is below what test rate one uses. Other thing is it is 4 strand vs. the 8 strand for the FINS, again should not be a problem as we have a 10x safety factor, just need to keep an eye on the lines to make sure there are no frays. Since I already ordered a spool of the FINS to try, we'll see how it goes.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2021, 04:14:07 PM »
Seeing Ara's post jogged my memory.  As I posted earlier, my family owned a small fishing tackle company in Tampa.  We made offshore leaders and rigs for grouper and king maceral.  The leaders were made from various materials one of which was braded Dacron in the 100lb range for small 10-20 lb. grouper.  With steel leaders for small fish you run the risk of catching the shark.  The "AMA" knot is almost identical to the one we called a barrel knot.  It had to withstand 15-20 minutes of extreme pulling under water.  This knot is very difficult to tie with two hands and even more difficult to get two in a row the same length.  We came up with a makeshift jig that made it easier to do both.  Sorry for the poor sketch.  Maybe someone will take this and make a better one.  Knots are the Achilles of Spectra.

Some quick explanation.  First you pull the line through the jig then you mark the place where the end will be on the top strand.  That is where you need to make the knot snug up to.  We used a split ring to hold it on the ends so that the two lines that you are looping around are relatively tight.  When you have it wrapped, slide it off of the rear holder and slowly pull it tight from the back till it starts to tighten up around your mark.  Try and keep the wraps in line, it is stronger that way but you won't always succeed. You will still have a loop in front.  AMA doesn't recommend it but we always took the free end and stuck it through that loop in front before pulling the spool line to tighten the knot against the eyelet.  Don't pull it too hard until you have most all of the slack out then give it as much as you have got.  It helps if the knot is wet when you give it the final pull.  Using this jig you should get no more that 1/4" difference in the lines.  This same knot can be used with mono as well with as few as three turns. 


AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2021, 02:06:43 PM »
I am waiting for my shipment of FINS #30lb test line to get here. Reading lots of posts it seems that the Palomar knot and Uni knot are the preferred knots. One thing that I have not seen discussed is how to get the last line knot tied so that you have relatively equal length lines. First three set the length but since these knots tighten by pulling both the main line and the tag line you don't have much control over where it finally ends up? Looked at the kite sites but they didn't have anything either. Anyone know a method that works reasonably well without a lot of custom jigs?

Could you use a thimble and swage on Spectra line?

Best,     DennisT

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2021, 02:52:08 PM »
I am waiting for my shipment of FINS #30lb test line to get here. Reading lots of posts it seems that the Palomar knot and Uni knot are the preferred knots. One thing that I have not seen discussed is how to get the last line knot tied so that you have relatively equal length lines. First three set the length but since these knots tighten by pulling both the main line and the tag line you don't have much control over where it finally ends up? Looked at the kite sites but they didn't have anything either. Anyone know a method that works reasonably well without a lot of custom jigs?

Could you use a thimble and swage on Spectra line?

Best,     DennisT
My post with the jig came from us asking the same question years ago.  The real key to what I posted is marking where you want the knot to compress to before pulling it tight.  When you pull the end line to tighten around the mainline you can alternate between the two to get it to snug up on your mark.  Then when you pull the main line from the rear it will stay sort of put.  It takes practice. That is why there are variable length clips and adjustable handles.

ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2021, 05:12:56 PM »
[quote author=Dennis Toth
First three set the length.  Anyone know a method that works reasonably well without a lot of custom jigs?

Best,     DennisT

    Dennis

       I consider the first knot on each line 'free'; setting the knots on the other two ends for the desired length is where the troubles begin. I use as my anchor points a pair of worn brake drums (or any immoveable anchor points) from my Ford Explorer that are set to the required distance and pinned to the ground. Small hooks that will accept the rings pictured in my post above are attached. The key to getting the length without adjusting for knot slippage is to tie it off with a square knot and back it up with whatever knot works. Keep the completed line on the fixtures and place the completed end of the second line over the ring of the first line. Place the final ring for the second line over the end ring of the completed line and tie to it with a square knot. The fun part is you can play the two lines like a guitar testing for equal tension and therefore, length, before tying it off.

      Works for me,

    Ara

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2021, 08:11:15 AM »
Has anyone tried using cable thimbles and swage ends? I came across what they use on cable called a "Cable Thimble". These are tear drop shaped open guides that the line rests in (like an eyelet) and you could knot at the bottom. They use this with swage ferrules (crimps to us) not sure if this could work with Spectra type line.

I have seen some small thimbles for 1/16" line, even 1/32" line but not sure what would work with light thin 0.012" Spectra. The fishing guys want fast and cheap and the hook would have to be placed on the thimble before doing the termination so no one tried this as far as I can find. Maybe Robert Zambelli (are CL swage/crimp SME) or Phil C can try this and do some tests, would be much simpler than a knot. Seems we could do a double over of the line wrap around the thimble through the ferrule pull tight and crimp, maybe loop the end around and through the ferrule once to make sure?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2021, 09:34:32 AM »
Has anyone tried using cable thimbles and swage ends? I came across what they use on cable called a "Cable Thimble". These are tear drop shaped open guides that the line rests in (like an eyelet) and you could knot at the bottom. They use this with swage ferrules (crimps to us) not sure if this could work with Spectra type line.

I have seen some small thimbles for 1/16" line, even 1/32" line but not sure what would work with light thin 0.012" Spectra. The fishing guys want fast and cheap and the hook would have to be placed on the thimble before doing the termination so no one tried this as far as I can find. Maybe Robert Zambelli (are CL swage/crimp SME) or Phil C can try this and do some tests, would be much simpler than a knot. Seems we could do a double over of the line wrap around the thimble through the ferrule pull tight and crimp, maybe loop the end around and through the ferrule once to make sure?

Best,    DennisT

Hi Dennis T
If you are talking about using what we use for regular cable using a crimped tube - I am not optimistic.  Spectra is REALLY slippery, and the shape is also not "rigid".  Thus, if you crimp or swag a tube onto it, I the braid would collapse to fit the space left in the tube and it could slip out.  If you were successful in smashing the line down inside the tube, then I think it would create a bad stress point right next to the tube.

I keep studying Ken C's sketch and think he is on to something. It looks like his device would help control how the knot collapses so that the end is in the correct position.

I tied my first Spectra lines using the enhanced Uni know shown in the General rules.  Tied one end directly onto line clips and the other end around eyelets.  By controlling my process (& partly by accident), I got the lines within 1/16" of each other which is about as good as I ever did with cable!  Seriously, I think the way to learn how to tie Spectra is practice that comes from making the lines.
 
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Spectra lines - braided or solid?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2021, 01:58:18 PM »
One thing that is being overlooked in this discussion is that the knot has a tremendous effect on the strength of the line.  A poorly tied knot can reduce the line strength by as much as 50%.  The strongest connection does not "bend" the line until it gets to the eyelet then it wraps around it and forms some kind of self-tightening wrap which is what all of the suggested knots have in common.  Any knot that twists the main line will degrade the strength.  Most knots do not twist or loop the line before the eyelet but be careful.  Overhand knots are probably the weakest.

Find what knot you want and make up some simple gizmo to hold the line while you tie it.  We were only given two hands.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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