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Author Topic: External control systems and roll attitude  (Read 1025 times)

Offline Kim Mortimore

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External control systems and roll attitude
« on: July 15, 2013, 01:22:02 PM »

This may be a stupid question, but when an external control system is used on a combat plane (typically a foam wing), is some adjustment required to keep the outboard tip from flying high upright and low inverted since the leadout guides are above the vertical CG?  Or is the distance involved not enough to cause a problem?  Or none of the above?

I have a couple of Russian Fast ARFs (older ones with the square wood boom) that I would like to convert to .20-powered stunt trainers.  I would prefer not to cut into them, but to attach an external bellcrank and external adjustable leadout guide.  The stock controls are made for a short lifespan in combat (hopefully these won't die TOO fast!) and the leadouts are too far back for stunt.

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: External control systems and roll attitude
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 06:52:01 PM »
       Hello Kim, I fly these planes and also build these planes. I know exactly the problems your describing. I was told it makes no difference what so ever but I strongly disagree. I generally end up warping the outboard tip up and a little of the inboard down and go and fly. It can take several attempts until I get the plane flying correctly. I've seen some of my opponents planes actually have the lines enter through the tip and exit out the top about 1/3 down the inboard wing. This seemed to work quite well. Sullivan Nyrod was then epoxied into the foam and the leadouts went through them. This seemed to want to automatically drop the outboard wing . Ken

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: External control systems and roll attitude
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 08:59:43 PM »

Thanks, Ken.  Yes the Sullivan Nyrod trick would work since the plane's roll attitude is determined by a line running from the leadout guides at the tip thru the vertical center of gravity midplane (when viewing from the front or rear), regardless of the bellcrank position, which a lot of people have trouble getting their minds around.  It is kind of weird at first.

So if I wanted to use external controls on a built-up ARF wing converted to stunt, I would probably have to make it a kind of high-wing profile (controls on the bottom) with the engine center line and everything else lower than the wing centerline, to move the vertical CG down.  Sort of like an Old Time Boxcar Chief.   
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline dave siegler

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Re: External control systems and roll attitude
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 05:12:21 AM »
I will make a suggestion.  Put it together as designed and fly it.  The internal controls will work fine, and will last and the leadout rank won't kill you. Combat planes as is make pretty good stunt trainers.

save your efforts for something better.   

if you must.  and it is a foamie, use an external leadout and put a tab on the outboard wing.  or Use and external leadout and once you find the spot drill an angle hole through the wing tip, and re plum you leadouts. 

I would not bother.  People flew with fixed leadouts for years and airplanes flew fine. Maybe not at the highest level but this is a stunt trainer?


I like external controls and hook right to the belcrank.  yes there is a little roll.  but it flies well.  Don't over think it 
Dave Siegler
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EAA 1231299 UAS Certificate Number FA39HY9ML7  Member of the Milwaukee Circlemasters. A Gold Leader Club for over 25 years!  http://www.circlemasters.com/

Offline Randy Bush

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Re: External control systems and roll attitude
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 06:15:28 PM »
Hi Kim,
I like the above approach - get it flying; It'll probably be fine.  Then trim using simple adjustments.
That said... 
How are you mounting what I assume is a plain bearing .20 in the large space meant for a BB .36? 
If you go with external bellcrank, you might have the option of mounting the engine off of the center line, vertically  --- moving the vertical CG closer to the level of the leadout guide.  Extra benefit:  If the controls are on top and the engine is slightly raised, you should get less dirt into the engine on landing.
 Re: Engines -- Are you using the rare and coveted OS fp20?  I'd use something like a LA25 that is currently on the market.  Save those fp20's for the stunters with landing gear.  Or use a pb .40 with a small venturi?

Rambling .... sorry.
Randy

Offline phil c

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Re: External control systems and roll attitude
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2013, 12:31:58 PM »
Kim, I haven't found that having the leadouts high or low by 1/2in. in 24 in has much noticeable effect.  You always have to balance the roll in a new plane regardless.

I agree with Dave, build the planes as provided.  You'll have to extend the nose for balance using a 20 or 25, but stick with the bladder tanks.  Once you learn how to run them they are so steady running.

The controls are fine for how long the planes are going to last.  Most of the Russian stuff is actually good for several hundred flights, if you don't use them fro combat.
phil Cartier


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