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Author Topic: Slow Combat trim problems  (Read 966 times)

Offline ray copeland

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Slow Combat trim problems
« on: September 17, 2009, 08:19:40 AM »
I purchased a used and "fixed" russian type combat plane at a meet this spring, the type with the carbon stabilator boom. The boom had been reattached and appears to be on about a 10 degree angle towards the outboard wing., i believe an angle of 1 or 2 degrees is desirable. The problem is the plane comes in on me during outsides to the point i can't save it. Could the angle be too much and causing this problem? I am just not sure of the effects of the stabilator angled one way or the other. Thanks for any insight,  Ray
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 12:37:45 PM »

The angle seems to be the problem.
Wrong direction.

The opposite way would increase tension with movement as it "channels" air to the out side.

The distance from the wing trailing edge to the hinge line should be less on the inboard side than outboard side.


David
David Roland
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Offline Pat Willcox

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 11:46:15 PM »
Sounds more like a warp and maybe tip weight problem.

Fly inverted and if you can see the outboard tip flying high, you need to use the heat gun to remove warp. Sometimes you have to add a piece of soda can stock to the trailing edge and adjust as necessary to get plane to fly OK.

Tape one or two quarters to the out board tip especially if it is windy.

Pat

Offline phil c

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2009, 01:43:51 PM »
As Pat says, this is most likely a warp problem.  Whenever the plane gets light turning one direction and not the other, try warping the wing to counteract it.  Coming in on insides is sign that the plane is rolling right.  Warp the wing to bring the outboard tip up in level flight.

You can get this problem from prop precession, especially if you are running a bit tail heavy and use a heavier prop.  In the good old days I built some F2D's that were unflyable using plastic props that had the same problem.  They were fine on wooden props.  These days the glass props most people use are pretty small and light and don't seem to cause much problem.  But, precession will make the plane turn in on outside turns, so it could contribute to the problem if the plane also had a right rolling warp.

phil Cartier

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2009, 05:28:40 PM »
The angle seems to be the problem.
Wrong direction.

The opposite way would increase tension with movement as it "channels" air to the out side.

The distance from the wing trailing edge to the hinge line should be less on the inboard side than outboard side.


David

FWIW, every model I have seen (or made myself) with a canted tail has it the other way, with the outboard side forward.


As others have said, I suspect a warp in this case, or perhaps just not enough tip weight.
For 75/80 I use lots, enough that the model "hinges" noticeably.
Pat MacKenzie
MAAC 8177

Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2009, 09:41:26 AM »
FWIW, every model I have seen (or made myself) with a canted tail has it the other way, with the outboard side forward.


As others have said, I suspect a warp in this case, or perhaps just not enough tip weight.
For 75/80 I use lots, enough that the model "hinges" noticeably.
Pat MacKenzie

Pat that's interesting on the angle.
I  used to do combat planes with the out board distance longer and do my stunt planes that way now always thinking the elevator would channel air to the outside and increase line tension buy pointing nose out.????
Now you have given me more to think about--just what I needed!! ~^


Ray, some how missed the only on outsides, possible warped or twisted elevator(one side high or low)The later is usually very minor problem.
Warp is most likely if its that bad on flying. Inboard wing low or out board high at TE.
David Roland
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Offline ray copeland

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2009, 08:44:07 PM »
I will try to heat and warp the outside trailing edge lower, and i added some more tip weight. Would a trim tab be useful for this? Hopefully i can try this out at our meeting this weekend. Thanks for all the ideas, i will report back.  Ray
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2009, 09:04:54 PM »
A trim tab will work.
I never liked them as I suspected they changed force with air speed.
Never tried them but others have with good results.

Twist your wing opposite warp about same amount as warp and shrink out the wrinkles.

If it stays twisted to much the other way let it sit awhile in the sun and see what happens.

If it does not flatten back out lightly heat it until straight on its own.

Keep checking it before every flight, a stiff wing will will slowly stretch the covering and warp will reappear.
Leaving it in a hot car will also.

If it keeps coming back over do it and let it sit a week or so the straighten it back out.
This hope fully will make it take a more neutral "spring set(?)"

I have even piled books or other on them and shimmed and left for a week or so to make them stay out.

Some time it takes tinkering but most warp can be permanently eliminated--mostly.
David Roland
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Offline phil c

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2009, 07:00:12 AM »
The angle seems to be the problem.
Wrong direction.
David

Angling the stab so the outboard tip is ahead of the inboard tip(~1 deg or less, maybe 1/4 in. at most) makes the plane transition better between inside and outside turns.  It seems to be that the angle squares the stabilator up with the airflow(the oil streak from the exhaust always angles off outhboard slightly).  It also puts some constant load on the hinge, so the stab can't wobble around as much.  This trick works on stunters too.

The angle of the stab doesn't do a big though.  And it will have a symmetrical effect, the same on both insides and outsides, so it isn't causing the plane to roll in on outsides.
phil Cartier

Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Slow Combat trim problems
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2009, 12:54:05 PM »
Thanks Phil
That gives me something to think about.
David Roland
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