CAROLINA CRITERIUM - October 16, 17 AND 19Th, 2015
Huntersville, North Carolina (Near Charlotte)

Friday Oct. 16Th AMA ˝ A Combat. $10 entry fee
will be flown Friday late in the day,3:00+. Alternate elimination. 2 matches, first round losers will fly each other. winners will advance to single elimination matches. Starters allowed.

Saturday Oct. 17Th Speed Limit Combat. $10 entry fee
75mph. Any model, fuel, engine. 60' +/-6" .018 Dia. lines,  Starters allowed.
Rounds format with cumulative scoring, 3 or 4 rounds depending on time & no. of flyers.

Sunday Oct. 18Th Fun Fly No entry fee. Single fly or two up. Pilots choice.
Vintage Combat (Pre foam) &
Fast Combat (Must have active shutoff).
 Let's see what you can dig up and fly.
Mike Londke Combat Cat) & Larry Davis (?) plan to fly a match(s) with their vintage aircraft.

Please let me know if you plan to attend and what events. Email or call.
If you have not attended a contest here or have changed ANY of your personnel info. please let me know.
AMA #, Address (city, state, zip), Phone (Home & Cell), email

Howard Shenton  83412 - Combat Event Director
310 Drury Lane
Mauldin, SC 29662
H 864-963-3504  C 864-9086513
panzer4hs2001@yahoo.com

Speed Limit is "rounds format with cumulative scoring"?  Does that mean it will not be an elimination event, and will be using those NE "point" rules instead?

Chad you know that's exactly what it is. I know many do not like the rounds format. I personally don't care anymore, I just want to fly matches. Someone suggested that if we use the rounds format, that we take the top 5 or 6 and then do an elimination round. Would that make it better or not?

If we don't use the elimination system, I suggest we try the swiss system instead of the "points" system. The swiss system is used in other sports and is inherently fair, and simple.

Some highlights of a swiss system for combat would be:

All contestants fly all rounds, unless there is an odd number of contestants, in which case there is a bye every round. The bye is given to the lowest scoring flyer except that no one would be given two byes.

A match win is one point, a loss is zero. Conventional scoring is used, counting cuts and airborne time only. Scores for cuts and air time are not cumulatively added from one match to the next.

The first round pairings are random. In subsequent rounds flyers are paired against opponents with the same number of match wins and losses, as closely as possible. No flyer faces the same opponent twice.

After a set number of rounds, say four, if there is a clear first, second and third place finisher the contest is over. If there is a tie for any of these places, it can be decided by either a fly off or by using a tie-break system which adds the match scores (wins and losses) of the opponents each placing contestant faced.  The contestant who flew against the highest scoring opponents would have the highest tie-breaks.

Conclusion: everyone gets to fly a full contest. There is a clear 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winner based on match wins and losses only.

Sounds good to me. Suggest it to Howard.

Okay Mike, I think I understand it, let me run this past you and see if I have the gist of what you're saying:

(HES COMMENTS/CLARIFICATIONS)

First match:

Pilot A racks up 450 points. Pilot B earns 400 points. These scores settle the match, but are pretty much pitched aside in regards to the OVERALL and then the following happens on the scoreboard:

Pilot A gets 1 point for the win. Pilot B earns 0.  FOR THE WIN

So Pilot A is on the scoreboard with 1 win, and Pilot B is on the scoreboard with a goose egg under his name.  Both Pilot A and Pilot B will face someone they haven't flown in their next rounds.  YES

This continues to happen until all matches are flown OR until a clear winner is determined.  NO! ALL PILOTS WILL FLY FOUR (4) MATCHES. THE PILOT WITH THE MOST WIN (CUMULATIVE) POINTS IS THE WINNER. TIES CAN BE DETERMINED BY TOTAL CULMINATIVE SCORES (AIRTIME & CUTS) OR BY A FLYOFF OR by using a tie-break system which adds the match scores (wins and losses) of the opponents each placing contestant faced.  The contestant who flew against the highest scoring opponents would have the highest tie-breaks.

If it is a small contestant turnout, the contestants won't get much flying IF they don't fly an opponent twice? WE GENERALY HAVE 8 TO 12 CONTESTANTS SO THAT WOULD BE A PROBLEN. IF ONLY 4 CONTESTANTS SHOW UP (UNLIKLY) THEY WILL FLY EACH OTHER.


WE USED A ROUNDS FORNAT SIMILAR TO THIS IN AN EARLIER CONTEST.
HOPE THIS CLEARS UP EVERYTHING

HOWARD

 

 
 
 

This is the Scoring Method we use here in the North East. We have about 7 Speed Limit Contests in the
Pennsylvania and New Jersey area during the year. We usually have between 8 -12 Pilots attend.
Please READ and Understand the Entire Rules and Comments Below. This system of scoring works and
Remember: 7 Contests per Year and 8 -12 Pilots!
 

Super Slow Combat/Speed Limit Combat
Those of us that flew back in those good old days all have some good and not so good memories of combat back then.
Yes there was much building if you wanted to fly at lots of meets. Yes there were some horrible arguments. 
It seems that we never learn that new events do not do much to improve entries. 
In combat some of us have learned how to eliminate most of the carnage and fly more combat than we ever did in the past.
The rules are nearly the same as the original combat rules. 
We have not made any major changes to the old rules that many of us grew up with. There are some minor modifications to the AMA rules that make it fun for all. 
1-There are no restrictions on the model (same as event 328 always has been.
2-The event is flown with four rounds and all that enter fly them (no pilot is eliminated).
3-Scoring is the same as event 329 with the exception that there are no points for cutting the string (no kill as some know it).
4-Cuts are limited to three. This is to prevent a seasoned pilot from running his score up on a rookie.
5-The first round uses a random draw. Rounds two through four are done by matching pilots with similar accumulated points.
6-A bonus of two-hundred points is awarded to both pilots for flying a clean match. That means no collisions or line tangles that force one or both pilots to crash.
7-The speed is limited to about 70 MPH. This works out to be 7.3 seconds for two laps on sixty foot lines.
8-The contest winner is the pilot with the highest number of points when all four rounds are added together (he or she does not need to win every match).
9-Being able to win the contest even if you lose a match or two tends to reduce the over aggressive flying that usually has much to do with carnage.
10-All pilots are encouraged to avoid maneuvers if the opponent is not in the sights.
11-This is the real first rule that was never printed in the various AMA rule books. Rule # 1  is, “have fun”. 
We have called this event Super Slow some call it Speed Limit Combat. It tends to reduce carnage so a pilot gets to use his model at many events.
This is not Formula GX Combat. The carnage in GX combat is still high. 
It does not matter what you call it. We are lucky and once in a while a new pilot or two will give it a try. Most of them come back and fly more meets.
The toughest thing is getting a pilot that comes back to present day from the past to change their tactics.
They must learn that the life of his model is the same as the life of those world war one and two pilots.
If you crash into the enemy no one wins. Pilots must understand that they need cut points, air time points and the 200 point bonus to do well.
We can tell you that at the end of a contest all people involved have a lot of fun. Our last contest on October 2011 had 16 pilots.
It is not always like that, but that is a lot better than many events we see in these times of video games. 
Remember you can use your old equipment or new old equipment in the event mentioned above. If you fly smart you can use it over and over again.

Hope this helps,
Larry (Contest Director)

That looks like a good set of rules. I headed to Tucson this weekend to fly nostalgia. I really like the event, but the downside is they dont really have any rules. So my Johnson powered Slingshot running about 85 has to fly against a Super Tigre powered Nemisis running 100. In reality if they are running over 75 they should run a shutoff, but no one does. I would prefer the 75 speed limit so any old 35 engine would work and the speed was the same for everybody. If I took it serious I would have to build 100+mph airplane. I dont want a 100 mph airplane, and I dont want to get into that competition mode that I have to have one. I want to chase streamers with an old airplane that I just might not tear up, and use the same airplane for years at these events. I want the FUN factor!

Yes, I agree, having fun is rule #1. However, the speed limit rules that Larry speaks of have several pitfalls that we should be aware of:


"4-Cuts are limited to three. This is to prevent a seasoned pilot from running his score up on a rookie". This also allows Pilot A, who has 3 cuts and 4:00 of airtime, to beat Pilot B, who has 4 cuts (or 5, etc.) and only 3:55 of air time. That is not fair.


"6-A bonus of 200 points is awarded to both pilots for flying a clean match. That means no collisions or line tangles that force one or both pilots to crash". Using the Northeast "cumulative points" system, consider the individual pilot scores after the following hypothetical matches:

Pilot A (a fairly seasoned pilot) and Pilot B (a novice with limited aerobatic ability) both finish their match with 4:00 of air time. Pilot A also has 3 cuts, Pilot B has zero.  Pilot A finishes this round with 740 points (240 points of air time, 300 points for cuts, and a 200 point "bonus"). Pilot B, who flew mostly straight and level throughout the match, finishes with 440 points (240 points air time, and a 200 point "bonus").

Pilot C (a very seasoned pilot) and Pilot D (a very seasoned pilot) fly a well flown, hard fought match and each finishes with 4:00 of air time. Pilot C has 1 cut, Pilot D has zero. However, near the end they become involved in a line tangle and both crash. Pilot C finishes this round with 340 points (240 points air time and 100 points for the cut) and Pilot D finishes with 240 points for his air time.

At the end of this round, Pilots A and C are the match winners. However, using the NE "cumulative points" system here are the standings:

Pilot A: 740 points
Pilot B: 440 points
Pilot C: 340 points
Pilot D: 240 points

Here we can see that at this point the novice, who lost, is in second place! And although Pilot C won his match, he is already 400 points behind Pilot A and has a lot of catching up to do. He is also behind the novice. This does not seem right.


"8-The contest winner is the pilot with the highest number of points when all four rounds are added together (he or she does not need to win every match)". In other words, it is possible for a flyer to win every match and finish in second place behind a flyer who lost a match, but had more "cumulative points". I have been told that this indeed happened at Huntersville a number of years ago. The runner up had even beaten the "winner".


"The toughest thing is getting a pilot that comes back to present day from the past to change their tactics.
They must learn that the life of his model is the same as the life of those world war one and two pilots.
If you crash into the enemy no one wins. Pilots must understand that they need cut points, air time points and the 200 point bonus to do well".

Larry, I'm honestly not trying to be harshly critical or sarcastic, but if I understand correctly, it seems that if a contestant crashes on his own (no mid-air or line tangle) he still gets a 200 point bonus? If we are truly concerned with rules emphasizing the life of the model, limit each contestant to one aircraft per contest and then we will really see some conservative flying with little risk taking.


"3-Scoring is the same as event 329 with the exception that there are no points for cutting the string (no kill as some know it)".

I saved this until last, in case I misunderstood it. Does this mean that if the string is cut with the streamer still attached one receives no points for that cut? Imagine how many experienced pilots flying closely in front of their opponent would intentionally pull up to have their own string and streamer cut off, thereby depriving their opponents of any future cuts, and at no cost. A well known combat flyer (he will remain unnamed) intentionally did this to me in the final match at Huntersville 7 or 8 years ago. He joked, "Now I've got you, Chad". That contest, my first in 30 years, was being flown as elimination, and I was still credited with the one cut. Fortunately, I managed to evade my opponent for the final 3 minutes or so and deprive him of the cuts he was counting on, and won.


Again, having fun is #1. But the "cumulative points" system has a number of potential flaws which I have highlighted. Earlier in this thread I suggested a Swiss System pairing and tie-break format based on match wins only. All flyers would fly four rounds, or as many rounds as the contest lasts. The Swiss System is used in other sports (I have participated in them) and it is very fair, and simple.

Best,

Chad Hill  

I think each pilot should be given an extra point for each year of age and deducted a point for each pound he weighs over 150.
Whatever you guys want to do I am in. Make it easy if possible. Whatever means more air time gets my vote.  No rule( non safety) is more important than sportsmanship and a bunch of folks that want to enjoy themselves as the priority. Come fly and enjoy the weekend.

Damn Larry I'm already -125 because of my weight

Chad, Glad you and some others took the time to read and understand the Northeast Speed Limit Rules.
Your comments and observations are well thought out and very correct.
This scoring system has been used in the Northeast for many years.
I believe that by using the same consistent scoring method at every contest
it has kept many pilots returning year after year. Everyone knows what to expect.
It also helps our Cut Judges, Circle Marshals, Score Keepers as we use the same
Score Cards and Score Board at every contest. By using this consistent scoring
system, it keeps the contest moving as everyone knows at a glance who is up next,
who you are flying, and what color streamer your towing.
So let's say it does not matter what scoring system you use at Huntersville,
just keep it consistent year after year.
I flew combat at Huntersville last year, had a real good time and met some nice people,
however I could not figure out the scoring system. Seemed to be very complex math?
The magnetic score board was just too small to view. These are my observations,
based on I was the Circle Marshal for most of the day. There was a lot of down time
between matches.  My advice is get a bigger score board, hand write the score and win/loss
info and post the next set of matches as soon the last round is complete.
I am not on Stunt Hanger very often, but I will post pictures of our Score Card and Score Board
in the next few days.

Again, I hope this helps,
Larry

Swiss Scoring   I set up an 8 man bracket and used the Swiss scoring.  Nobody had to fly the same opponent unless there was no other choice.  To keep it simple the first listed pilot in a match was the winner.   It really makes no difference how you assign scores, there are only 4 wins an 4 losses in each round.  As it happened, 1st had 4 wins, 2nd had 3,  3,4,5,6 had 2, 7 had 1 and 8 had 0.  The worst that could happen is for everybody to have 2 wins and 2 losses.

After trying umpty ump different methods of running contests.  I can see only two ways that work fairly well-  AMA Fast rules with the midair clock, or cumulative scoring for 4-5 rounds  with a 200 pt bonus to both pilots for a clean match and some limit on scoerable cuts.  Without a limit it is very likely a good pilot will run up 4-5 cuts on less skilled flyer who only manages to keep his plane in the air for that on match.

Either one minimizes any real incentive for trying to win a match by a midair or line tangle.  Just
counting cuts doesn't change much.  The last cut is still worth points and usually wins the match(just like F2D).  Since that last cut is so important close matches usually end up with a lot of close in maneuvering and a midair.

The question is whether you want to fly matchs and get better, or just win matches.  The best matches I've seen are almost always between two flyers that know each other and want to settle things in the air.

If it is not working why are they getting more entries? 

Jeez Howard you are making me blush lol.  But Thank you for the kind words. I'm looking forward to many more years attending Huntersville. ALWAYS a great time.

14 Entries in Speed Limit and the only guy complaining about how it was run didn't show up, Nuff Said!  

I flew Brodak this year and used these northeast rules for the first time. I had to change my thinking to score points instead of win the match. My brother Andy, just couldn't get there. He's always been a "win at all cost" guy. And he scored about the least, broke more airplanes, and others airplanes, and won the most matches. TADAAAA......this is the reason for these type rules. I on the other hand, stayed in the air, didn't take stupid chances to get cuts, avoided tangles and collisions, flew around without any pressure and had a great time flying combat, got a cut here and there, and whaddauknow? I won the event. Am i the best pilot??? Who really gives a s...? I'm not there to prove anything. I'm there to fly combat and have a good time. It don't change my tax structure one bit on the outcome of a contest. I was guaranteed four matches. Wish it was six. Wish I had 3 rematches. I like chasing streamers. I'm not crazy about tearing up my stuff. I think these rules do a pretty good job of making that happen.

Hello Bob,

I respect your opinion very much.

But if these rules are so good, then this question begs itself: Why not change the rules to all US combat events, so that they fall in line with the NE rules used at Brodak and of late at Huntersville? Change 1/2A, Fast and F2d Fast. Why limit these NE rules to Speed Limit contests in certain areas of the country? I'm not being facetious, just playing Devil's advocate. The outcome of a contest doesn't change my tax bracket either, I just want to have fun- but under reasonable rules, rules without lots of loopholes. Big loopholes.


To All:

I have recently pointed out that under these NE rules, at Huntersville this year it would have been possible to fly STRAIGHT and LEVEL for four rounds, make NO cuts, and take SECOND PLACE in the contest (see my "Joe Kinkylines" post above).  I find it mildly astonishing that apparently no one sees anything wrong with the scoring and a set of rules that would allow this to happen.

Will I have to intentionally fly this way at the next contest to make my point? My equipment starts fast and I will easily get airborne very quickly each round. It would only have taken 4:35 of straight and level airtime each round to finish second in this contest, given the 200 bonus points awarded for a "clean" match each round. What a strategy for a beginner or a gloryhound!

If we want to place a high priority on avoiding midairs, line tangles and crashes in SL combat, I would suggest we entertain the thought of limiting each contestant to one (1) aircraft per contest. We will then see some real conservative flying with little risk taking.  Costs will be cheap, the contest will be safer (more politically correct, too) and it will be the perfect event for beginners. lol

Yes, John, I read Bob's post. I know he flew by those rules and won.

Have you read any of my posts about these rules?

Bobby pointed out one of the major issues in designing Combat Graffiti. What to do about the huge potential difference in speed that can exist in the vintage stuff. I solved it in concept, Barry Hobkirk and Greg Davis solved it in detail with a set of rules.

The issue is that if somebody builds a "Front Row finish" model that is for all intentets and purposes, a scale model of the original, how do we keep Kennyb from building a mono-coated voodoo and plowing into Bobby just because he wants to win a match? Obviously the two models are very different in detail and workmanship. Here's what I came up with.

Do not make it a combat event, make it a builders event that ALSO has some limited combat. The weighting of the building points and adherence to the original published plans, AND the flying is not even. It's very close but with a "pretty good model" and a perfect match score, you can get a winner. This is how I can compete with say Bob Hunt who decides to build a vintage combat wing. We enforced a speed limit and made a small number of points available for best costume....hence Buddy Holly. (Kelly Croizer) who walked away with the silver cup even though he had real issues in matches with his Count Clippers and K&B 29 r's. He beat out a flawless WOW by 1 point....it was the fun factor that did it.

If anyone would like a copy of the rules we used, please send me a note. Ours is a "builders event" not a flyers event.


Ken