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Author Topic: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.  (Read 7664 times)

Offline Bud Morrison

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Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« on: May 08, 2014, 06:06:41 AM »
I have been working on these rules and wanted to get some feedback.
The aim for these rules is a low cost Electric combat class to fly at our club.

Tentative One Design Electric Combat Rules (A work in progress)

Plane- ??????????

Motor- TO BE DETERMINED
Propellor - TO BE DETERMINED
ESC - TO BE DETERMINED
Timer - Any Commercially available control line timer
Battery - TO BE DETERMINED
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 01:21:02 PM by Bud Morrison »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2014, 12:26:33 PM »
So, I read your message thinking "I have nothing to add, I don't fly combat".  But...

The ESC current limitation isn't going to affect performance, it's only going to affect when ESCs burn up.  And different ESC brands with the same ratings will act differently at any rate, because some manufacturers do something with the truth that marketing people call "making it look more attractive" and which ordinary people call "lying".  Going to a higher rated ESC may gain you some tiny advantage in lower resistance, but it's going to take that away with more weight.

The airplane performance is really going to be affected by the prop used, the number of battery cells, the voltage constant of the motor (so-called Kv, although this term is only used by the model industry), and the total resistance in the system.

I'm trying to think of the best way to set your rules to put everyone on a level playing field, and the best way I can think of is to either call out a specific part number of motor (and hope the manufacturer doesn't change it), or to allow anything that turns below some specified RPM with the regulation prop, with a fresh battery.

What do the 'lectric RC racers use?
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2014, 02:48:03 PM »
Quote
Motor- Park 300 or SA Sport 300 (2204-19 or equivalent) Brushless Outrunner Motor

The or equivalent caps the motors at 1400kv 

At 10 amps you will most likely smoke one of these motors before the esc The motor is only rated at 7.5.

Capping the esc at 10 amp keeps cost down. Even the cheap brushless escs these days shutdown on overload.

Actually the whole power system new with timer and a lipo should only cost someone about $65.00 at the most. Less if you shop the stuff.

Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 09:06:17 AM »
Looks like I need to redo my motor calculations. The motor I had originally thought would work is to slow for 45' lines. Even marginal on 35'
Next step is to talk to Bill at Stevens Aero about it. Maybe he will have a recommendation as I saw a picture on his website of one with a larger silver outrunner motor

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2014, 06:42:59 AM »
For that size bird WEIGHT is critical.  Suggest standardizing on the APC 6x5.5E prop, 3S x 500 pack and a 3 minute(?) time limit to keep battery size down.  There is not a lot of cost or weight save going from 10A to say 18A ESC, I think the larger one woud be more cost effective by virtue of robustness.  2205 motor should do the deed, for 3S anything over about 1300 kv should work.

Have you considered Spiderwire lines?
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Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2014, 07:48:04 AM »
For that size bird WEIGHT is critical.  Suggest standardizing on the APC 6x5.5E prop, 3S x 500 pack and a 3 minute(?) time limit to keep battery size down.  There is not a lot of cost or weight save going from 10A to say 18A ESC, I think the larger one woud be more cost effective by virtue of robustness.  2205 motor should do the deed, for 3S anything over about 1300 kv should work.

Have you considered Spiderwire lines?

Thanks the 2205 will work nice. (see ecalc below)  Should put us real life around 58 or so mph.
Have considered Spider wire but know there are some in my club who don't have a high opinion of it being used at our field.
I'm waiting for Bill from Stevens Aero to contact me to verify the fitment of a larger lipo. Not sure a 450 or 500 will fit.

Ecalc results

Battery
Load:   19.23   C
Voltage:   10.46   V
Rated Voltage:   11.10   V
Flight Time:   3.1   min
Mixed Flight Time:   5.3   min
Weight:   39   g
    1.4   oz
-----------------------------------
    Motor @ Optimum Efficiency
Current:   5.18   A
Voltage:   10.66   V
Revolutions*:   14660   rpm
electric Power:   55.3   W
mech. Power:   45.9   W
Efficiency:   83.0   %
    Motor @ Maximum
Current:   8.66   A
Voltage:   10.37   V
Revolutions*:   12694   rpm
electric Power:   89.8   W
mech. Power:   72.4   W
Efficiency:   80.7   %
est. Temperature:   39   °C
    102   °F
-------------------------------
    Propeller
Static Thrust:   585   g
    20.6   oz
Revolutions*:   12694   rpm
Stall Thrust:   263   g
    9.3   oz
Pitch Speed:   106   km/h
    66   mph
Tip Speed:   365   km/h
    227   mph
specific Thrust:   2.93   g/W
    0.1   oz/W
--------------------------
    Total Drive
Drive Weight:   109   g
    3.8   oz
All-up Weight:   113   g
    4   oz
Power-Weight:   850   W/kg
    386   W/lb
Thrust-Weight:   2.33   : 1
P(in) @ max:   96.1   W
P(out) @ max:   72.4   W
Efficiency @ max:   75.4   %
Motor Characteristics


Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2014, 06:57:27 PM »
Spec battery cell count and prop for a given airframe and total minimum weight.  There are only a certain number of combinations that are durable and balance properly without excess ballast.  Make example recommendations for all other components from several suppliers.

Require launch RPM, determined by tach on the ground.  Same aircraft weight at the same RPM with the same prop will equal same speed in the air (unless there is some electronic trickery involved) 

Tach by judge or judge's assistant immediately prior to launch, allow a narrow but useful range of RPM.

Run time is already fixed per combat rules, so minimum battery size is determined by clock and launch weight. 

Consider providing official props.

Phil

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 10:50:16 AM »
For something that was supposed to be simple, sure got complicated.   If you have a combination that works,  why not make it the same for everybody.   That was done with Shoestring Racing in the early days.   One airplane design,  one engine for power and entrant had to fly his own plane.   Even the rules stated had to be built as close  to kit as possible with 1 ounce fuel tank.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 11:16:59 AM »
It CAN be simple. Mandate a line length and a speed limit. Other than that, anything goes. It makes for a fun day of combat. Sure, the guys with the lightest airplane and most talent are going to win, but you can't legislate those things, so you learn to build light and fly better. I never learned to build light, and the talent thing sort of plateaued, but even I had a few lucky days and brought home some hardware.

Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 02:16:01 PM »
For something that was supposed to be simple, sure got complicated.   If you have a combination that works,  why not make it the same for everybody.   That was done with Shoestring Racing in the early days.   One airplane design,  one engine for power and entrant had to fly his own plane.   Even the rules stated had to be built as close  to kit as possible with 1 ounce fuel tank.

Yup keeping it simple, one design, approved spec kv motors (many motors are the same but re-branded), one size battery.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2014, 02:25:09 PM »
It CAN be simple. Mandate a line length and a speed limit. Other than that, anything goes.

That sort of rule (and maybe a time limit -- or, maybe not) would work best for me.  I don't want to go buy a bunch of mandated brand-new stuff: I want to dig into my junk box, build a plane, then run what I brung.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 01:46:30 PM »



1000kv motor
2200 4cell battery
9 x 8/34 wood racing prop

Runs 4 minutes @ 75mph and has 16% battery life after 4 min flight.

Won the Tucson 75mph two years in a row with this airplane against fuel models. No starting time. Stealth sound. Havent hit the ground or another airplane yet to see what happens. Only down side is the prop free wheels until you land. Cracked two props. But did hot stuff it back and used it again. Wouldnt dare try that on fuel!!
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 01:47:20 PM »
O, and that was on 60' lines
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 09:13:50 AM »
Are you using a timer?   I like the looks of the set up.   
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 10:42:45 AM »
Looks like a timer just under the bell crank.  I like this idea also. 

Bob- could you post more detailed pictures of your battery compartment and electrical system for everyone to see.
Thanks

Offline Bud Morrison

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2014, 01:21:58 PM »
O, and that was on 60' lines

Who's wing cores are those ?

Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 03:36:04 PM »
I'll try to get out in the garage some and take some better pics. The timer is an e-flite I got off ebay for $12.00. I stated the battery is a 2200 4 cell and that is wrong. It is a 2800 4 cell. I have used the 2200 for 3 min flights. But the 2800 is what I used in competitions with 4 minute flights. The timer is mounted back by the bell crank. It is a very simple timer. Hold the button down for one burst, it runs for one minute. Two burst, two minutes, etc. The ESC is in the leading edge right where the motor wires are. There are a couple of cooling holes that are hard to see in the pics. The wing cores are my own. This is an old slow combat plane converted to electric...(I've still got lots of old slow ships that are not used anymore)
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Offline phil c

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 05:29:28 PM »
A couple years ago I electrified a Li'l Hacker(not a super light design!)  Several people had sent pictures of what they'd done, so I tried it.  For a Half A sized plane on 35 ft lines I soon found that you need about 180watts- 3 cell battery, 16 amps.  That will run off a 1000 mah battery for 3 min.  Turnigy Aerodrive C2826 1650 Kv motor(that exact motor is probably not available any more)Castle 25 amp speed controller, a 2.8gHz receiver, APC 7/5 E prop.  It flys nicely, can do eights, loops, and is peppy enough for some serious combat training.  The performance is similar to the same plane on a  Cox Black Widow engine, but it runs a minute longer.  With the smaller plane you can use a rubber band prop mount and save props.

Bob's simple approach works great too(especially if you already have planes), just a few dollars more.  Since it was built for a 36 combat motor is it a lot more heavily built than needed for electric.  I'm pretty sure with some construction changes it could easily fly just as good on the 22-2300 battery for over 4 min. and still be fairly crash worthy.

The pic is of Andrew Land built with a similar conversion.  I like to mount the motor behind the firewall to protect the can/rotor in a crash.
phil Cartier

Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 12:33:07 PM »
The entire is covered with lam film for fuel proofing. I wonder if it would hold up with no covering at all? Dont need it with elect. Maybe tissue and thinned out white glue might be lighter than the seal lam. And as Phil said, this plane has some heave duty spars and reinforcements, and a Nelson duty motor mount that could all be much lighter. With that said, this airplane really flies great the way it is. A special built electric airplane about 2 or 3 oz. lighter outa be fantastic!
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 06:43:37 PM »

Here comes some more pics
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2014, 06:50:14 PM »
nevermind. I cant seem to get them on
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2014, 07:29:29 PM »

Try again
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2014, 07:35:18 PM »
Last shot before I give up
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2014, 07:38:18 PM »
OK...I guess just one pic per post. That last one was the bottom of the plane showing the battery box. This is from the front. I just gorilla glued some ply to the top and bottom spars.
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2014, 07:40:21 PM »
Here's the batter slipped in. The two pics further up ion this show the batter pushed all the way in and the 64th ply covering it so I'm not reposting those pics
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 07:41:39 PM »
Here's the timer. I don't think they're built anymore. What a shame too. They were cheap and simple
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2014, 07:45:27 PM »
Here's the motor. This was from a Brodak. Don't know if they're still available or not. its an arrowind. I used some generic 1000KV from hobby king on the flight streak and it ran the same speeds. I think the Hobby King one was about $15.00. I'll post some pics of that too.
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2014, 07:47:41 PM »
Here's the Streak motor. I fly it with the same batteries. I haven't actually clocked it but I think it also runs about 75mph.
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2014, 07:50:12 PM »
This is the Brodak timer. It gives me 30 seconds to get to the handle before it takes off. Great for flying by myself. Motor starts off slow and builds up to full speed. Unlike the e-flight which just hauls it as soon as you hit the button. This one has adjustable power, and time
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2014, 08:04:00 PM »
This is the modified Streak. I cut the planking and 1/2 the leading edge for the battery. I slipped the speed control in the wing behind the battery slot. Timer on fuse by pushrod exit. Spaced a piece of plywood at the right height to hold the battery snug and run Velcro around it to hold it in. BTW. Epoxy the top battery plywood and use a couple of dowels through. More stress there than you think. I just CA'd it the first time. Shot the battery across the park when I was doing tight outsides. I also build the first motor mount out of plywood glued to the fuse and a couple of plywood supports on each side. That got me over 30 stitches on my thumb. And I was BEHIND the airplane. Now I use an aluminum motor mount. I flew this setup last summer on some rough ground and the plane flipped over on its nose as it was taking off. That smoked the motor and the speed control. It was an older speed control out of an RC Stryker. I hope the newer one will shut down if that happens again. This would be the setup for elect. combat in my opinion. First off its an RTF that everyone seems to want now days. And its not expensive. It flys fantastic. Its easy to modify. And the system is cheap through Hobby King. Brodak has a ready to go system for their Elect clown including the battery and charger for $179.00 I think. I'm not sure that that's not the best idea. I haven't had any problem with my Brodak system and I have had some steep learning curves trying to make a cheaper system work. But I did finally make it work.
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 08:15:12 PM »
OOps...forgot the speed control in the combat plane
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2014, 08:44:33 AM »
Great pics of how it is done by you.   But, you might try shrinking the pics to 100KB or less.   Just time consuming and it is not that hard to do.  Thanks for the pics tho.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2014, 09:26:34 AM »
Thanks Bob.  I really like this set up.  I think we are going to vote to use electric in one the local events sometime soon. 

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2014, 05:49:20 AM »
Bob M
LOTS of great ideas there thanks for posting! 

The Arrowind 2815 has kv = 920.  For 75 mph target on 4 cells that is not a bad combo.

The Hubin FM-0c timer (like in your pix) lets you adjust RPM & duration but not start delay.  One very nice feature is that it adds throttle over the course of the flight, to compensate for battery voltage fall-off, so the speed is more or less constant.  You could use this timer with a low cost ESC.  Wil Hubin makes other timers that also allow you to change the start-up delay, so you could use the same timer with no delay - in competition or when with flying with a friend, or up to a 30 second delay for when you are flying with a stooge.

Looks like you are using a Phoenix ESC, you should be able to activate the prop brake.  Unfortunately that is no guarantee the prop will stop in the correct position!  Sad to say, a landing skid may be in order...
Denny Adamisin
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Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2014, 09:20:55 AM »
I'm electronically challenged. How would I go about programming my ESC to make the prop stop at the end of the run?
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2014, 09:59:28 AM »
ECS's all program a littler different, and not all ESC's have brakes.  But you can go online and look up your model number to see if it has a brake and if it does, how to program it.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Low cost Electric club level one design combat class.
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2014, 06:05:54 PM »
That'll be a cool explosion when the battery gets penetrated.

MM


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