Author Topic: Memory Test--Combat Engine Prices (Read 2159 times)

Kim Mortimore · « **on:** April 03, 2009, 05:46:21 PM »

Does anybody remember when the list price for a new fast combat engine topped $100? The reason I ask is that there is a new speed event of interest to me, Southwest Sport Speed, which is for Fox Race planes, but with any engine up to .36 that is front intake, side exhaust, and originally cost less than $100. With inflation, this could make some of the older combat engines competitive, possibly along with older .29 f/f engines. Tanks are limited to suction, so venturi restriction would be needed in an engine designed to run on pressure, but I don't think that would be a problem.

Also, any ideas where to find historical information on engine prices?

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore

Paul Smith · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2009, 08:58:03 PM »

The Fox Mark VI was an even $100, list.

I think the Mark III debuted at $39.95, and the Mark IV must have been about $59.95. The Mark V was an economy model.

The VI had much better bearings and a better piston & cylinder, thus warrenting the price jump.

The Nelson .36 was $275 and was worth more that 2.75 Foxes.

The old needle bearing FOX Combat Special and the Johnson CS 35 were both $20, while the JBB 36 was $25, and the $5 made the JBB rare in these here parts.

Chad Hill · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2009, 10:35:27 PM »

The ST G21 35 was about $19.95 in 1972 (in Detroit) and the plain-bearing version C35 was a couple bucks less, at Joe's Hobby Center...Chad Hill.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #3 on:** April 03, 2009, 11:15:47 PM »

The Fox Mark III is the obvious choice. Most had aftermarket parts, the sum of which was probably < $100. I still have a couple in service, but it would be difficult to find the receipts for the shaft, rod, piston and cylinder, and head button.

eric conley · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2009, 10:20:30 AM »

I've been very interested in the .35 (.36) sport speed event for the past couple of years. I wondered why no one had entered a plane powered by the Thunder Tiger Pro .36? In the Carrier Plus meet held in 2008 the winning plane was powered by an EVO .36 and the winning speed was I believe was 94mph. That was around 3mph faster than the previous speeds in the event. Burt Brokaw won the latest event with a TT Pro .36 at a little over 100mph and the EVO plane I believe was second at 94mph.
Tower is out of the TT Pro .36 at this time and I don't think they will get any more but e-hobbies has them for $74.99 (less than towers price). These are a great little engine and work well in carrier as well. One draw back is they are ABN and some people feel that is a major draw back. I've been using these engines in carrier planes for the past several years and have at least one with pretty high time on it and it runs just as strong now as it did when I first got it. Now if I could just put together a plane for the event. eric

Marvin Denny · « **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2009, 04:10:39 PM »

The MK VIs were just below $100 I believe. The 1983-84 Hoffelt was around $250.00 . Most of the ST G21 series Super Tigres were under the $100 bracket. fox MK VII was just over the $100 at somewhere around $125

Bigiron

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2009, 04:31:36 PM »

Sounds like a lot of engines to choose from, old and new. I'm not sure if the <$100 is list price for the stock engine only, mod parts don't count, or if the total cost of all parts is <$100. I suspect the former is the rule, as the latter would be messy to enforce. I have a message in to George Brown, who I gather is the originator of the event, or at least sponsored it at the Cabin Fever contest at Whittier Narrows.

Quote from: eric conley on April 04, 2009, 10:20:30 AM

I've been very interested in the .35 (.36) sport speed event for the past couple of years. I wondered why no one had entered a plane powered by the Thunder Tiger Pro .36? In the Carrier Plus meet held in 2008 the winning plane was powered by an EVO .36 and the winning speed was I believe was 94mph. That was around 3mph faster than the previous speeds in the event. Burt Brokaw won the latest event with a TT Pro .36 at a little over 100mph and the EVO plane I believe was second at 94mph.
Tower is out of the TT Pro .36 at this time and I don't think they will get any more but e-hobbies has them for $74.99 (less than towers price). These are a great little engine and work well in carrier as well. One draw back is they are ABN and some people feel that is a major draw back. I've been using these engines in carrier planes for the past several years and have at least one with pretty high time on it and it runs just as strong now as it did when I first got it. Now if I could just put together a plane for the event. eric

Eric, do you know if the TT Pro .36 is being modified for Carrier? I suspect the stock engine would need power mods. One obvious advantage of a modern engine is relatively easy parts availability.

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore

eric conley · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2009, 05:21:19 PM »

The TT Pro .36 is an RC engine out of the box so it doesn't take any mods to use it in carrier. I didn't ask Burt if he took the carureter off and then put a venture on it. The TT Pro .36 seems to be a sleeper to a lot of people as far as being a powerfull engine. I feel confident that it is the strongest out of the box .36 engine around today. I suspicion that it wont be around much longer though. About 4 years ago (give or take a couple) it came out as a Helicopter engine and then later as a RC engine. I don't think it is in production any more as the supply seems to be drying up. Mine usually turn 17800k on the ground with a APC 9/6 and 10% fuel.
I have attached an e-mail on the .36 speed event. eric

phil c · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2009, 01:42:36 PM »

Quote from: eric conley on April 05, 2009, 05:21:19 PM

The TT Pro .36 is an RC engine out of the box so it doesn't take any mods to use it in carrier. I didn't ask Burt if he took the carureter off and then put a venture on it. The TT Pro .36 seems to be a sleeper to a lot of people as far as being a powerfull engine. I feel confident that it is the strongest out of the box .36 engine around today. I suspicion that it wont be around much longer though. About 4 years ago (give or take a couple) it came out as a Helicopter engine and then later as a RC engine. I don't think it is in production any more as the supply seems to be drying up. Mine usually turn 17800k on the ground with a APC 9/6 and 10% fuel.
I have attached an e-mail on the .36 speed event. eric

Unfortunately, the TT36 is a .365, and not allowed in profile carrier. The Fox 36's were .359 cu.in.
From the Thunder Tiger website:
Displacement: 5.98 cc. / 0.365 cu. in.
Bore: 20.8 mm. / 0.819 in.
Stroke: 17.6 mm. / 0.693 in.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #9 on:** April 06, 2009, 02:09:32 PM »

Thanks for the "heads up" on the TT37. I think there's a carrier job in town with one of those.

The "street price" of combat engines varied a lot with local discounting, as it does today in the web stores.

Our local hobby shops, Royal Craft and Royal Six, with John Kilsdonk as the resident pro, had a good pipeline to World Engines down in Cincinnati. We routinely got OS Max III's and ST C35's for $13. The G21/35 debuted at $18 and put an end to all other engines until production came to an end.

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #10 on:** April 06, 2009, 02:16:29 PM »

I know of several TT37s being flown in carrier at one of the clubs I fly with.

I think the intent of the <$100 pricing rule is manufacturer's list price. Allowing discount pricing would make the rule virtually unenforceable.

Kim Mortimore

eric conley · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2009, 02:30:21 PM »

Yes Paul isn't it something how there are so many different prices on engines these days. Reminds me of my better half coming home from town and telling me she got a great deal on some clothes (marked down 60%) so she just couldn't pass it up. Nothing means anything anymore. Phil is caught up in it too about the TTs being to big. They (who ever they is) changed the rules just to accommodate these new .36 engines. The latest maximum size for a .36 is .3661. One of these days the engine companies will start listing their .36 engine as a .40 if they thought they could sell more. Oh well, eric

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2009, 07:26:01 PM »

Eric,

I can't read the attachment in your Apr 5 message--the type is a bit too small and broken. Could I ask you to forward it to me at kim dot mortimore at hp dot com?

Thanks,
Kim

Paul Smith · « **Reply #13 on:** April 06, 2009, 07:29:35 PM »

Actually, all this "36" stuff dates back to the 35's used in Combat. They drew the line .3600 to give the 35's a little slack, some wiggle room so to speak. But then manufacturers (like Fox) started pushing that limit, too.

36 means .3600 cubic inches maximum. After flying this event size the middle 1960's, it would be criminal to penalize every owner of a LEGAL engine by further stretching the rules to include a clearly oversize engine.
--------------------
I just checked the Profile Carrier rules and YES, they did sneak the engine size up .3661. Up until just now, I didn't realize that this abuse of power by the Contest Board was precision-targeted to legalize one specific engine. Next thing, they'll be wondering why there was another drop in participation, if such a thing is possible.

But, vis-a-vis the new speed event described herein, it's still .36.

-----------------
ps:
They can name an engine anything they want. Displacement is what bore and stroke says it is.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2009, 06:32:29 PM »

I beleive it was the last left hand rotation Fox that caused the engine size increase. I have one that has not been in any competition as I can't get a decent run on a profile. It runs great upright or inverted. DOC Holliday

Paul Smith · « **Reply #15 on:** April 08, 2009, 07:05:46 AM »

Whether the rules were fiddled to squeeze in a cheater-Fox or and oversize TT37, the practice is just plain wrong.

The equipment must be made to fit the rules, and NOT THE REVERSE.

The Contest Board that put this through should be ashamed of themselves. It was an injustice to everybody who has bought and used LEGAL equipment in the event since 1965. Capricious changes to the PRIME DIRECTIVE, the engine size, make future flyers wary of the whole catagory.

Leonard Rennick · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2009, 03:50:28 AM »

Kim,

Based on my experience in this event (I won the prior two events, but didn't make Cabin Fever) you would be wasting your time and money on an old combat engine. I've tried several hopped up G21 35's, S36's, K&B 35's with 40 front ends etc. it turns out a good FP35 beats them. Right now the hot set up is , either the Evo or the TT. I would think that the Magnum 36 and the other 32 to 36 clones out there would be competitive.

The short version of the rules:

Engine: 36 or smaller less than $100, suction, 9x6 STOCK production prop no custom props, any mods to the engine are legal.

Plane: 300 sqs, 1inch thick, 22 inches from thrust washer to hinge line.

Leonard

Leonard

Author Topic: Memory Test--Combat Engine Prices (Read 2159 times)

Kim Mortimore

Memory Test--Combat Engine Prices

Paul Smith

Re: Memory Test--Combat Engine Prices

Chad Hill

Re: Memory Test--Combat Engine Prices

Howard Rush

Re: Memory Test--Combat Engine Prices

eric conley

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Marvin Denny

Re: Memory Test--Combat Engine Prices

Kim Mortimore

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eric conley

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phil c

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Paul Smith

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Kim Mortimore

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eric conley

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Kim Mortimore

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Paul Smith

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john e. holliday

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Paul Smith

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Leonard Rennick

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