I have an old Cyclon with mounts to help when redesigning the nose.

            Bill, you could also fill the end of the boom with a dowel, drill through it about 5/16" from the end  and install a piece of brass tubing about 1 1/2" long. Wrap the tube and boom with carbon two and coat with thick CA.  On the elevator, you glue two pieces of brass tubing onto the leading edge of the elevator spaced slightly wider than the boom tube and use a piece of wire to slide through the tubes to hold the elevator on. I like to use a piece of silicon tubing on the end of my hinge pin to prevent it from sliding out. In the event of impact, slide out old pin and plug new elevator on.

Thanks Ken, got it, like a section of piano hinge.  L bend on the inboard end of wire and tubing for the retainer.  Great!

Bill- almost all the current F2D planes are 45.5 in. span in order to fit into a shipping box.  Many/most countries limit boxes to 46in.  Otherwise the construction has been optimized to death so all the planes are virtually one design and between ~410-430 sq.in.  The foam wing will build heavier so if you're not planning to ship finished planes to Europe add a little extra span and narrow the chord to better carry the weight but keep the wing area in the same range to minimize any speed loss.  Also, if you go for a typical F2D mount with aluminum beams(it makes the engine run much better), extend the boom nearly to the front of the motor block so crashes won't break the block.  Mount the engine back close to the leading edge and shorten the boom to balance.

I'd do what Phil says, lighten the hinge by getting the brass out (I copied Phil's tail hinging method in 1978 and used it for a couple decades thereafter), and keep the airfoils.  I'd sand off the little kink in the airfoil aft of the spar, though. 

Bill

I get it...cutting the foam is or can be relatively easy

BUT If I wanted to get a fleet of many for the club again I would seriously consider asking Phil Cartier for the best closest wing he already has cut.... and how ever much SLC needed....
Production cutting the nose blocks, spars, bell crank support, and tails is too easy once you have the CG formula

I personally think the micro grams difference between sewn and very small brass tube/music wire stab hinge is insignificant for a training, fun fly,  club set of birds

Hummm...Sloan canyon
Las Vegas
Henderson
Combat playing
Club involved
Maybe some Big Block fast planes considered???
Certainly sounds like .15 F2D is planned
I see Fast 1/2a happening

Perhaps a excuse to fly to Las Vegas in the near future???

Hopeful Phreddy

Hey Phil...I have no idea how Bill plans to do it

My first efforts at foam cutting WITH spar slots was a pain
My next templates omitted them and I got pretty good then with cutting the core without a bunch of grief

I managed to build a jig for each blank to hold the position for the spar slot on my router table

Before I fussed with routing them in: my much preferred method now
I positioned a guide and used a shaped 150 grit home made sanding bar...tedious and I did not like my method of depth control... but a doable method

For many of the wings I did wide by shallow horizontal spars and then some were narrow by deeper vertical spars and some where one method top and other method bottom...no evidence any method was better or worse...just me experimenting and learning

I settled with the wider 1/4" shallow 1/8th" spars with carbon TOW under and thinned TightBond II as my preferred easy to repeat method

Thanks fellas, I read an article about that center point cutter, great idea, it looks like you have it working well Paul.

Thought there should be a little lead-in too and filed a little ramp at the front.  At the rear there are a couple notches on the templates for the wire to fall into at the end of the cut.  I'll be using a home-made drop-arm cutter.

Bill

you may know this but....

To make the wings nearly bullet proof I use Kevlar cord (or Carbon TOW) around the wing tip back to center of TE and wrapped around the arrow shaft set with thick CA....

I start the cord just in front of the Tip on the LE, set into a shallow slit in the wing tip to "bury" the cord, then along the outside of the  TE to the center...In a direct nose plant this lash up keeps the foam wing from torquing forward and breaking

I also use .75 fiber glass cloth on each wing tip as well as engine mount area... generally glued on with thinned White glue...makes the tip and glue area of the engine mount tougher

I also fix flattened carbon TOW Under each spar top and bottom....layer of tinned White glue...TOW set in the glue... fresh glue, set spar, light clamp, when dry, razor plane spar to taper at wing tip

1 inch and 2 inch wide strapping tape is also used...the 1 " is folded over equally above and below TE perimeter

The 2" a strip on top and bottom of wing near 1/2 chord out about 10" either side of center, ironed down and then covered with SLC on the whole wing

These planes will take a direct full speed nose plant and survive with the only issue being digging all the dirt out of the broken prop engine

each of these ....carbon TOW, Kevlar thread, and strapping tape have very good tension strength vs weight

virtually impossible to fold or break a wing this way

Okay thanks Fred, I'll incorporate those ideas.  Knew about the TE lashing but not the other areas.  Good to know!

Bill

I have cut my nose blocks from 1/2" or 3/4" thick bass wood about 2.5"~3.25" inches long and as tall as the rib profile after the motor mount area.... I prefer the 1/2 wide stock but trying to slice the "on hand" 3/4" thinner was a problem...obviously the 1/2" stuff is slightly lighter...a good thing

the very front top to bottom width is perfectly parallel and square Keeping same as spacing for the motor mounts

One arrow shaft diameter hole centered from aft to front, just shy of where motor mount bolt hole(s) will be

One side to side arrow shaft short spar hole...also aft of where motor mount bolts will be

The horizontal spar is in the center of the foam wing about 4"~ 6 " either side of center...spritz of water and gorilla glued

The total length, nose to rear, is such that the Bell crank bolt is in the motor mount.... but far enough aft for BC to swing free and this bolt is a secondary hard point for the arrow shaft to nose block gluing

Hope this makes sense...my camera will not upload to computer for some reason these days

For good or bad a 3/4" clear pine block was chosen with the grain running vertically.

The forward part of the block needs to accomodate the engine and aluminum mounts, the rear needs to have a hardpoint for mounting the BC and have a socket for the tailboom.  I slapped some 1/32" ply to the sides.

Pine was chosen for weight and strength considerations.  We'll find out soon enough if it works.

Pine was chosen for weight and strength considerations.  We'll find out soon enough if it works.

It might need to withstand a figure 9 or 2.... lol

A figure 9 or a figure 2?  I can do a figure 9, you'll have to show me a figure 2.

I think that is similar to an inverted pancake.

Phil

I personally like the craftsmanship of the pine nose block and think I would harden the engine mount and BC through holes with CA or Brass tube to prevent wallering out from figure 2 and 9 events

There is an argument for a horizontal short arrow shaft spar through the block into wing AND a thin ply piece the height of the nose block in front or at rear... set in a slot in the foam

Tedious to describe and wish my stupid camera would upload to this pc ..... I have tried EVERYTHING

Also ...once nose is set it is a good idea to use .75 FG cloth and reinforce the nose ...I don't fuss with epoxy and use slightly thinned white wood glue (Elmer's) or Tight Bond II   (ugly yellow but combat so who cares)

Can you tell me about those metal engine bearers please?  Where they came from, what brand?

Thank you
Phil

TE reinforcement is 80 lb. Dacron braid from Bass Pro Shop.  Soaked the braid in epoxy, stuck it down.  Wear gloves.

If you have the technology, tapered spars are best.

More wood in the center where you need it. 
Less mass outboard.  Outboard mass puts stress on the center. 

 happy with the results.  I suspect they'll be heavy but they're straight and seem sturdy enough.  Left plenty of room for improvement!  Still need to figure out a method for a bladder compartment, cover wings and install controls. 

Thanks Dane, hope our little scheme works!  Already found better methods for producing just about every part on the plane.

Some pics

Always a good idea to fix two or three bladders and train them...then fill and measure height and width averages with typical expected fuel load

Make the in wing bladder cut out slightly larger so no false pressure

probably camera perspective but Bill's look a tad marrow to me

I use squares of strapping tape for bladder insert and bottom drain---- two pieces in both places one turend  90 degrees and under the final covering...then I burn a bladder insert hole in the top close to center line with dremel cone shaped stone and slightly smaller fuel drain hole in bottom.... that one outboad towards wing tip

Your dimension should be fine for a .15.   Mine are 1.375" x 6" , and that gets me over 5 min  for a .36.

A couple more things Bill.  Bass is fine for a motor block, but you need to loosen the mounting bolts after every flying session or the wood will compress while it sits.  Then tightening the mounting bolts will torque the case.  The boom should go almost to the front of the block and have the bolts go through it- a .113 or so numbered bit will just clear 4-40 bolts.  But since it has a metric engine and mounts, use 3mm bolts in a slightly bigger hole. Most Euro F2D planes use pieces of 1.5mm(,062in) fiberglass plate epoxied top and bottom back to the spars.  The motor block really need to be made very precisely, especially parallel top and bottom so the beams don't torque the mounting tabs on the motor.  Ball bearing motors particularly don't like to have the case twisted.

To fix the motor mounting bolt probem you can use Dubro brass inserts.  They screw into the right sized holes and use some epoxy on them.  It needs 4 short bolts though.  Or you can cut some 3/16in. aluminum wire, cut the wire to length, and drill a through hole and tap it into place with some epoxy.  Sand the ends flat and parallel with the block.
 
The original designs like this(Steve Hill's Arrowplane) used a piece of hardwood dowel pressed lightly and epoxied into the front of the boom and extending far enough back that a through bolt could be used to mount the bellcrank directly on top of the boom.  Another way would be to cut a strip of 1/32in. aluminum.  Half wrap it around the boom with the ends to the left.  Bend the ends to into a zig-zag shape that will take the bellcrank and pushrod and attach with a short 6-32 bolt.  Hold the mount in place by figure eight wrapping some carbon tow around the aluminum and the boom and then soak it with thin epoxy before installing the bellcrank.  Or you can run a piece of 3/32 aluminum welding rod through the BC mount and boom and afix with a bit olf epoxy.

1/8 x 3/8 bass, spruce, or pine is fine for spars, although a bit heavy.  For flat spars you need to add a doubler laid flat in front of the spars about 1.5in. long and tapered back to the main spar.  Either that or cut quarter inch deep slot in the block under the spars for vertical doublers to lock the spars in place.  You need at least a 3/4in. square of gluing area to hold spars to the motor block.

Anyway, the planes you are putting together should fly just fine.  Just some tips to make them more durable.



Dacron fishing line won't do much for holding the wing together in a crash.  It's too stretchy.  Needs to be carbon fiber, Kevlar, or possibly Spectra fishing line, but that is hard to glue.

Yes that's great advice and appreciated.  Looks like Dane and I will have many improvements to make in our refinement program.  The scale tips right at 15 1/2 oz.   With any luck the second airframe will be delivered to him this afternoon so he can put a couple trim flights on each before leaving for Lubbock.

One of Fred V's posts reminded me.  The original stab hinge you were talking about was made by Roy Henderson in Nevada.  He was making dies for a molding company and made a complete set- bellcrank, stab mount, and horn.

The planes look fine. 

The bladder compartment was supposed to go into the right panel during assembly.  T-12 fluorescent light covers are 1.5 in and 5in. long is plenty for F2D.  Or you can go with T-8 covers, 1.15 in. in diameter, 6-7in, long.

Way back when I did some experimenting.  1/8 x 3/8 spars set flat, as you did flexed about 1/8 in. with a weight on the spar and the tips supported.  The same wing with a 3/16 x 3/8 vertical spar tapered to 1/8in. at the tip flexed 3/16in.+ with the same weight.  With either type of spar vertical webs at midspan and at the tips cut the flex to almost nothing.

Phil C

A couple of tings I might add. First, I would glue some formica on the top and bottom of your motor mount. That will stop your wallering out. And a great little tool I use for cutting out fuel cells is a hot knife. Mine is a bit different, but its 25 years old too. Here's one thats similar...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nordstrand-Electric-Styrofoam-Cutter-Hot-Wire-Styro-Foam-Cutting-Pen-Knife-/272341308733?hash=item3f68ce953d:g:rNUAAOSwIgNXsJXE