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Author Topic: Rules - New Line rules?  (Read 2508 times)

Offline Mike Anderson

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Rules - New Line rules?
« on: April 20, 2011, 07:34:32 AM »
Hi -

There are a lot of rumors and emails flying around (no pun intended) that the rules change proposal to allow "GSUMP" fishing line as line material in combat has been passed and released by the AMA Safety Committee.

I know that some contests have already flown with the 'Spectra' lines allowed, but I can't find anything on the AMA site or that is anything official that the new rule is, in fact, now in effect.

Anyone have a reference or documentation that we are operating with or without the Spectra lines at our contest in 3 weeks?  Just want to know what to tell my ED regarding this change.

( I have checked the AMA site and found no mention in the posted "2011-12 Control Line Combat" rules.  In the Proposed Changes section there is documentation that the rules proposal passed the Contest Board vote but that it was still in the hands of the Safety Committee.  That is the latest "Official" info that I have been able to gather.)

Thanks --

Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 08:07:42 AM »
OK - I just received a reply from Greg Hahn at AMA (Technical Director) that the new lines ARE approved by the Safety Committee, that the changes are being added to the on-line "2011-12 Control Line Combat" rules document and that they should be posted within a couple of weeks.

I have attached a copy of the "Proposed" wording, to which I added Greg's email, to use as documentation in the meantime.

Let me take a moment to applaud Mr. Hahn for his quick help and for actually paying attention to the Control Line community - it is the best experience I've ever had in dealing with the the AMA office personnel over a control line issue.

Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline BillLee

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 12:06:46 PM »
...Let me take a moment to applaud Mr. Hahn for his quick help and for actually paying attention to the Control Line community - it is the best experience I've ever had in dealing with the the AMA office personnel over a control line issue.

Mike, I couldn't agree more! Working with Greg has been a breath of fresh air, especially compared to what we had before!

Bill
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Offline phil c

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2011, 02:10:40 PM »
Way to go everybody that pitched in on finally getting this through.  It took a lot of work by a lot of folks.  Especially thanks to those who contacted their CLCB rep, or local rep.
phil Cartier

Offline dave siegler

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2011, 01:25:25 PM »
So does that imply that they can only be used in competition?  Is control line general going to change as well?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 04:43:03 PM by dave siegler »
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Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2011, 03:14:56 PM »
Hi Dave - I'm the guy who proposed it and gave a 'test to destruction' presentation to the AMA Safety Committee and got it passed for combat. Many others pushed it along as well.  As far as I can see, it will be allowed in combat only in this rules cycle.  Stay tuned, it will be pursued for the CL General rules in the 2012 rules cycle.  Certainly having it used in combat, but not allowed for sport flying could be said to be illogical.
  I'd venture to say that the central difficulty facing its introduction is the present state of the CL Contest Boards.  When the old single CLCB was broken up in to separate boards for each event, a crucial omission occurred, in that there was no contest board established for CL General.  The procedure now is to have all members of all contest boards vote on any proposal to change CL General rule.  It is cumbersome to say the least, and makes change all but impossible.  I have written some letters and one formal proposal to get it changed so that the respective chairmen of each CL Contest Board constitute a general board to vote on changes to the General CL rules.  It has been ignored so far, but maybe sufficient pressure can be brought to bear to get it changed.  I have certainly found the the AMA officials I have dealt with are not difficult; they genuinely want to do the right thing.  The problem seems to be that we are trying to change 50 plus years of customary behavior.  It's hard to get a large group to step outside its comfort zone.  So let's get some experience with Spectra in combat and then see how the next cycle goes.  It won't hurt to let your AMA VP know you want to see this change, politely and in a constructive way.  Tom Hampshire
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 04:25:01 PM by tom hampshire »

Offline BillLee

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2011, 04:46:06 PM »
Back in the old days of a single contest board you had many CLCB district members who were only conversant in a single discipline. You had rules being voted into effect by people who had NO vested interest in them, no knowledge of the discipline, and often a "Who cares?" attitude if it wasn't "their" event. It was proposed that there be a Contest Board for each discipline in CL. That proposal was first made at LEAST as far back as the very early 70's, but it wasn't until this century did we get the structure of the CL Boards changed. And I suspect there are very few folks that would rather have "their" rules being set by some yahoo that doesn't even fly "their" event.

Want an example? I can tell you how to solve the stunt BOM issue: let's get a bunch of the racers together and we'll "fix" your BOM rules! We might even throw in a combat flyer or two! Yeah, sure!

Oh, I have heard all of the tired old arguments about how the CLCB members should be "generalists" and that better suited them to set the rules. Unfortunately, most of the self-proclaimed "generalists" didn't pay any attention to the needs and desires of those who were actually flying "their" event. Most districts effectively had zero representation in the rules-making process.

Tom, you are absolutely right: getting a CL General rules proposal made involves a LOT more people. But that isn't a DISadvantage, it is a PLUS for the current system. Since the CL General rules affect EVERYONE, they need to be given MORE attention, not less. A wider collection of folks looking at them can only lead to better decisions.

Regards,

Bill Lee
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Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2011, 06:01:00 PM »
     Bill, I think we agree, at least as far as a separate board for each event, with specific experience in that event.  My only thought is that no board should have the 88 members who presently comprise the CL General board.  It's cumbersome, and too hard to administer.  Cordially, Tom Hampshire

Offline BillLee

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2011, 09:20:31 PM »
     Bill, I think we agree, at least as far as a separate board for each event, with specific experience in that event.  My only thought is that no board should have the 88 members who presently comprise the CL General board.  It's cumbersome, and too hard to administer.  Cordially, Tom Hampshire

I'm confused, Tom.

With five CL boards and a maximum of 11 members per board, where do we get "88 members".  Yes, 55 is still a bigger number than 11 or 12 or ..  :) but still not 88.

Regards,

Bill
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Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2011, 06:34:39 AM »
     You're right, Bill.  I do think 55 is still too many for a committee.  Tom

Offline BillLee

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2011, 08:36:03 AM »
A classic case of "Agree to disagree."  :)

Bill
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2011, 08:36:47 AM »
I have not ever seen a set of these line what advantage do they offer?
AMA 12366

Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2011, 09:53:14 AM »
Bill - At least we're agreeable.

Bob - They weigh about one fifth as much as steel.
         They are as strong as music wire, about 30% stronger than stainless.
         They have a coefficient of friction about one fourth that of stainless.
         They are nonconductive. - No static discharge during flight.  (This DOES NOT mean you can fly during a thunderstorm.)
         They come in high visibility colors.
         They are uv fast, and not subject to fatigue or other damage from bending. 
         They are much more resistant to scuffing or abrasion from being stepped on.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2011, 10:08:13 AM »
well keep me informed and also will they do a 2X pull test? and what is line terminations like
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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2011, 10:09:37 AM »
Bill - At least we're agreeable.

Bob - They weigh about one fifth as much as steel.
         They are as strong as music wire, about 30% stronger than stainless.
         They have a coefficient of friction about one fourth that of stainless.
         They are nonconductive. - No static discharge during flight.  (This DOES NOT mean you can fly during a thunderstorm.)
         They come in high visibility colors.
         They are uv fast, and not subject to fatigue or other damage from bending.  
         They are much more resistant to scuffing or abrasion from being stepped on.



You can walk into any sports or fishing store and buy them when needed, no mail order!!!!!!!!

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2011, 10:53:50 AM »
Even though I've not flown combat for a very long time, this will eventually concern all of C/L and I am so totally thankful for guys like Tom, Phil, Bill, and others who put their time, work, and reputations out there to incorporate changes that benefit the sport!  I'm sure that sooner or later these changes will come to all of our C/L categories.
THANKS GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! #^ #^ #^ CLP** CLP** CLP** (PE**) (PE**) BW@ BW@ BW@
Will
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Offline Davidf2d

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2011, 12:18:24 PM »
What is the "approved" method of line termination?   I've heard of people just throwing on a couple of granny knots for 1/2A.  The fishing guys say there's only 1 or 2 good  knots for this type of material.   Hard to believe that someone will flly a fast combat with with just some sort of knot in the end.
Also, it is very dangerous to mix and match lines at a contest.  Our experience is that the GSUMP lines will cause steel lines to lock up with only a couple of  twists in a line tangle.

Dave

Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:37 PM »
Dave - See Greg's email; attached to the second post here.  My testing shows a Palomar at 80-82%, surgeon's knot at 85-90% or a 5 turn uniknot at 100%.  For combat, the surgeon's knot looks like the choice under the rules as drafted.  Note they are not yet official.  Tom Hampshire

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Rules - New Line rules?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2011, 03:25:47 PM »
Bill - At least we're agreeable.

Bob - They weigh about one fifth as much as steel.
         They are as strong as music wire, about 30% stronger than stainless.
         They have a coefficient of friction about one fourth that of stainless.
         They are nonconductive. - No static discharge during flight.  (This DOES NOT mean you can fly during a thunderstorm.)
         They come in high visibility colors.
         They are uv fast, and not subject to fatigue or other damage from bending. 
         They are much more resistant to scuffing or abrasion from being stepped on.



Neither do they kink or swirl --
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa


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