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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Combat => Topic started by: Brian Gardner on March 05, 2020, 04:16:30 PM
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EDITED
I've been asked again if I would do a run of Fox 36 Mk 4-5.
Again, I'm happy to do these if there are enough numbers. WE HAVE ENOUGH NUMBERS
They will be stock Mk V timing and include piston/liner/rod/pin/head shims/backplate gasket.
Also doing Tyndal double bubble head buttons to suit stock long reach plugs, and also Nelson head buttons. So let me know if you want either or both.
Piston/liner/rod/pin/shim sets will be approximately $115 to $125 Australian dollars. Don't know what the head buttons will be $.
So anyone wanting extra parts such as head buttons, rods, additional backplate gaskets needs to let me know so I cater sufficiently.
Brian
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Brian, I will take one set and would strongly recommend standard spec. C. T. Schaefer
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I’m in for two or more
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I'm in for two.
Al
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Brian
I'll take 4,
If the Wiley spec makes more power SUPER
If not standard is fine
Mike
PS If Brian does cylinder heads I would take 6 to 8 of them
Mike :) :)
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I agree, keep it stock but do all the series from the MK 3 fit to the MK6? Al, without me taking mine apart is the crank the only difference in the MK6? I know the diameter is bigger but the crankpin is still the same with the same stroke?
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Hi Brian.
What is the minimum number to make this happen.
OK to share this on the MACA FB page?
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I assume that you are writing about replacement piston & cylinder sets for the Fox Mark 4, 5, and 6?
Please state your price.
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4 and 6....5 is a failed anomaly
I tried twice to get Brian to do Fox 36 MK IV..MK VI internals....never got enough pre orders and argument with Jeff Dawson and I about stock timing vs Willy ...Jeff wanted more aggressive Willy dimensions....I wanted stock better parts
I still have several NIB Fox 36 MKVI.....sold a butt load of my Marvin Denny FOX 36 IV/VI s to a guy in Oz
I am out--- not ordering.....but if Brian needs a factory Fox 36 MK IV...(with "C" on port side) I can send the sample for measuring
editd in.....BTW..Brian occasionally includes heads and gasket/shims....someone should send a Tyndall Hemi head to replicate...C.T Shafer can elaborate I bet....
and if someone wants or needs a stock new MK VI...make an offer
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The Mk. VI P&L will also fit in a Mk. VII, correct?
OK to share this thread on the MACA FB page?
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I need 20 units ordered minimum.
Price would be approx. $115 to $125 Australian dollars (plus shipping). That is for piston/liner/rod/pin/shims.
If you want some different head inserts that will be extra (not sure how much yet).
I don't have experience specific to this engine, so it is up to you guys to come to a consensus as to what you want and supply preferable 2 sample engines.
OK to share to other places, but I don't want to be chasing around various noticeboards etc to collate numbers. So I'd prefer all requests on here.
Brian
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ok to share...I tend to think....never owned one..that Fox 36 Mk VII (Mark Seven AAC) had more changes and not real compatible internals like MK IV ---MK VI
Brian is NOT offering to do MKVII internals... firstly too few example out in the real world vs MK IVs and MKVIs
if the 20 pre orders lack one or two I will ask for one set....
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The Mk. VI P&L will also fit in a Mk. VII, correct?
OK to share this thread on the MACA FB page?
NO, the Mk VII Liner WILL NOT fit in the Mk III - Mk VI case, it has a much larger OD.
Guys in are club would put Mk VI ABC piston & liners in their MkIII & IV engines that had the steel internals, and ran them in our Warbird racing event.
I think using the porting in the MkVII would make a stronger running engine, but the case might have to be modified to take full of advantage of the ports.
From what I heard, Fox supplied a .020 liner shim for the Mk IV, to raise the timing for more power.
New head buttons with a double bubble chamber, using a Nelson or turbo plug would be cool to have, I would order at least 4.
I personally never measured difference in the rod or crank pin between the MkIII to MKVI engines, but the the bore is the same from MkIII to MkVII. The Mk VII has a much larger crank pin.
The MkIV Crank will fit in the MKIII. The Mk VI and MkVII cranks only fit their specific engine.
Al
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This is exactly what happened the first go around. I has asked Brian about producing these due to two catastrophic losses I encountered. What I'm aware of is the MK 3 and Mk 4 use identical cases with a crankshaft difference but will interchange between both. I also believe the 4 had a needle valve option high or low.
The 5 is a combination plain bearing and rear ball race with a completely different shaft but I noted the MK 3 cylinder and piston fits with just some very slight porting differences but it still works.
The VI which I own two is a completely different animal which was ABC and I could be wrong here but I believe I have a 4 with VI internal piston sleeve making my 4 a abc. So if I was to purchase what I believe is correct in my thinking, would I be covered from my MK 3's- to the 6? It certainly sounds that way.
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Brian,
I can supply you with a couple of new P/L'ers(2) and a new motor(1) for your project. I'll want them back. Also have stock and custom rods(RPM and Aussie rods) for the Mk VI if you are interested in duplicating one of those.
You REALLY need to have Don Repp weigh in on this discussion. He can tell you exactly which direction to go.
My opinion is go with stock replacement and if folks want a different more aggressive timing then shim it and get a new head insert made.
I have way too many motors and spares now but if I can, I want to help you help others.
Thank you,
Lane Puckett
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Lane, sent you a PM
Mike
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OK guys, between here and direct emails I have enough people to go ahead and do a small run of these.
It would appear the consensus is stock timing.
I need a good sample engine as a loan to go ahead with this. Also any head buttons or aftermarket rods you guys want replicated.
Brian
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This is great news!!!
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I would be in for 6 each of the better rods & improved cylinder heads
Anyone else???
Mike ;D ;D
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A set will include piston, liner, rod, pin, shims.
I can do head buttons and extra rods if wanted provided they are pre-requested.
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Brian, I can probably come up with one of my "double bubble" head inserts that I sold many of back in the '70's and '80's. These will fit the Fox MK III and the IV. I will dig up the drawing for these, also. These inserts were made for standard long glow plugs. I didn't make any of these for the Nelson plugs. I'll get something in the mail to you soon.
Dick Tyndall
Virginia Craftsman
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Brian,
PM sent on getting you a motor and additional P/Lers for duplication.
Thank you,
Lane
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Thanks Dick, that would be great.
I'll send you a PM with my address.
Brian
Brian, I can probably come up with one of my "double bubble" head inserts that I sold many of back in the '70's and '80's. These will fit the Fox MK III and the IV. I will dig up the drawing for these, also. These inserts were made for standard long glow plugs. I didn't make any of these for the Nelson plugs. I'll get something in the mail to you soon.
Dick Tyndall
Virginia Craftsman
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Reply sent Lane.
This project has the green light fellas.
It will take a few months as it has to wait in line behind a few other projects.
Brian
Brian,
PM sent on getting you a motor and additional P/Lers for duplication.
Thank you,
Lane
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Brian,
Will you build the heads for Nelson plugs or will they use standard?
Mike
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Personally, I don't see the need to make any head inserts for the Nelson plugs. Back in the day when I was making these inserts and flying Fast Combat I was using Rossi R-5 long glow plugs with 30% nitro fuel with Fox MK III's on 19 ounce foam wing airplanes and running 122 MPH. The plugs held up fine . The Rossi plugs are available from Alan Hobbs who lives in Montana. I believe the R-5's are $4.00 each. I don't think you would see much, if any performance gain by using the Nelson plug. Just my opinion.
Dick Tyndall
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Good to know
Was just thinking my Nelsons & Fora's use Nelson & I have a huge pile of them y1 y1
Mike #^ #^
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People have asked for both the Tyndal double bubble head button and also Nelson. So I will do both.
So those that want head buttons need to let me know which type and how many to add to the list.
Brian
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People have asked for both the Tyndal double bubble head button and also Nelson. So I will do both.
So those that want head buttons need to let me know which type and how many to add to the list.
Brian
3 Nelson head buttons
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I would be in for 6 nelson heads
Mike H^^ H^^
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Guys, Do you want laser cut backplate gaskets too?
Brian
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Guys, Do you want laser cut backplate gaskets too?
Brian
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Yes
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2 piston & liner sets, 4 Nelson heads, and 10 Gaskets .
Thanks Al
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Copy that Al
Brian
2 piston & liner sets, 4 Nelson heads, and 10 Gaskets .
Thanks Al
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I will order 2 P/L's, 3 Nelson head buttons, 6 gaskets.
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Guys, this (and all my other projects) has been delayed due to Covid19 issues. But things are back to normal and the ball will start rolling.
I have some drawings etc for the Nelson plugs, but what is the thread?
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Guys, this (and all my other projects) has been delayed due to Covid19 issues. But things are back to normal and the ball will start rolling.
I have some drawings etc for the Nelson plugs, but what is the thread?
Pretty sure it is 11/32 - 32 UNEF
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Please post the US pricing for the Fox piston, liner and rod sets.
Isn't the Mark VI a different part set form the Mark III, IV, and V?
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Please see the edited first post in this thread.
Please post the US pricing for the Fox piston, liner and rod sets.
Isn't the Mark VI a different part set form the Mark III, IV, and V?
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Brian, please put me down for two sets, done long reach and 1 Nelson plug head.
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Done Phil
These are just starting to kick off. Covid19 has put me way way behind this year
Brian
Brian, please put me down for two sets, done long reach and 1 Nelson plug head.
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Finally getting started on these.
Sorry its been such a delay. Covid19 has pretty much put things a year behind.
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Not forgotten or dead in the water guys. Just progress is slow.
Brian
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Please see the edited first post in this thread.
Brian, I wanted the Fox m2 piston and liner sets, But I don`t see my name on the list above. Don`t know why,
but still want a set.
Thank You
Gordy
gordandelaney@yahoo.com
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I've added you to my list Gordon.
Brian
Brian, I wanted the Fox m2 piston and liner sets, But I don`t see my name on the list above. Don`t know why,
but still want a set.
Thank You
Gordy
gordandelaney@yahoo.com
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Hi Brian,
I probably mentioned this in an email or a letter, but put me down for (2)Fox MK 3-4 ABC P&L sets with the Tyndall double bubble head inserts for the standard long glow plugs.
I hope things are going well with you.
Dick Tyndall
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Hi Dick,
Yes, I have you on the list.
I am way way behind on projects. Between shipping problems due to covid last year and the invasion of Ukrain this year material supply has been a problem. Things are moving again now but my backlog has become outragious.
I apologise for the delay on all my projects.
Brian
Hi Brian,
I probably mentioned this in an email or a letter, but put me down for (2)Fox MK 3-4 ABC P&L sets with the Tyndall double bubble head inserts for the standard long glow plugs.
I hope things are going well with you.
Dick Tyndall
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Hi Dick,
Yes, I have you on the list.
I am way way behind on projects. Between shipping problems due to covid last year and the invasion of Ukrain this year material supply has been a problem. Things are moving again now but my backlog has become outragious.
I apologise for the delay on all my projects.
Brian
Keep up the great work Brian! I don't need any of the Foix Combat stuff, but will keep my ears open to anything else you may be cooking up as you get caught up.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Brian,
Fantastic to see you are getting some P/L'ers and related stuff made and out. Congrats! I'll pm you a quick question and then hope to talk to you via phone.
Thanks,
Lane Puckett
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I've been asked again if I would do a run of Fox 36 Mk 4-5.
Again, I'm happy to do these if there are enough numbers. WE HAVE ENOUGH NUMBERS
They will be stock Mk V timing and include piston/liner/rod/pin/head shims/backplate gasket.
Also doing Tyndal double bubble head buttons to suit stock long reach plugs, and also Nelson head buttons. So let me know if you want either or both.
Piston/liner/rod/pin/shim sets will be approximately $115 to $125 Australian dollars. Don't know what the head buttons will be $.
Brian
[/quote]
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I'd like 2(two) piston liner assemblies and 2 of each head: Tyndal long reach, Nelson plug version
Thanks Brian
Phil C
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List updated Phil.
These and the ST35 will be getting priority after the current run of 160 x OS61VF are done.
Brian
I've been asked again if I would do a run of Fox 36 Mk 4-5.
Again, I'm happy to do these if there are enough numbers. WE HAVE ENOUGH NUMBERS
They will be stock Mk V timing and include piston/liner/rod/pin/head shims/backplate gasket.
Also doing Tyndal double bubble head buttons to suit stock long reach plugs, and also Nelson head buttons. So let me know if you want either or both.
Piston/liner/rod/pin/shim sets will be approximately $115 to $125 Australian dollars. Don't know what the head buttons will be $.
Brian
i=
I'd like 2(two) piston liner assemblies and 2 of each head: Tyndal long reach, Nelson plug version
Thanks Brian
Phil C
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Getting closer fellas.
Not forgotten.
Brian
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Hello
Nice to know you are still making Fox 36 parts but wonder will mk4 and 5 sets fit a mk6?
If the Mk 6 is different is it a possible for the future?
Thanks
Regards Gerald
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From memory the MK6 is different. I think it was AAC too.
Yes it's possible for the future (but only as ABC) if there is enough orders for it.
Brian
Hello
Nice to know you are still making Fox 36 parts but wonder will mk4 and 5 sets fit a mk6?
If the Mk 6 is different is it a possible for the future?
Thanks
Regards Gerald
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Hello Brian
Thanks for your reply , it would be great if we could get some Mk6 P/C sets made , how many orders would you need?
Think the Mk6 was steel on the very early ones but most were ABC , while the Mk7 was only AAC but had problems so people retrofitted the ABC sets from the Mk6.
Regards Gerald Wimmer
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From memory the MK6 is different. I think it was AAC too.
Yes it's possible for the future (but only as ABC) if there is enough orders for it.
Brian
MkIII, MKIV, MKV, and MKVI can all use the same piston, liner, rod, and wrist pin. MKVII is a whole different animal and nothing interchanges
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These are ready guys.
I'll start contacting everyone on the list and begin shipping out. Bear with me - I'm insanely busy trying to keep up with this and my wheelchair basketball commitments both on court 4 times a week and also on numerous committees managing teams and organising tournaments, funding grants, charity fundraisers etc.
Brian
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I got my order and Brian's work is excellent as in the past. The thing that I'm not too thrilled about is the Tyndall double bubble head inserts. These inserts have a very large combustion chamber. In my opinion, you will have to really tip the nitro can to get power almost like a Nelson 36. This will also cut down on the overall run time per oz of fuel used. I think a better head design would have been to copy the Nelson 36 double bubble head that has a much smaller combustion chamber, and would produce a high-power output with only 10% nitro and is a proven design. I would be in if Brian would made them.
Al
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Al, That is what Dick Tyndall noted in the first page of this thread. He ran 30% nitro with those heads which is what they were designed around.
Lane
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I got my order and Brian's work is excellent as in the past. The thing that I'm not too thrilled about is the Tyndall double bubble head inserts. These inserts have a very large combustion chamber. In my opinion, you will have to really tip the nitro can to get power almost like a Nelson 36. This will also cut down on the overall run time per oz of fuel used. I think a better head design would have been to copy the Nelson 36 double bubble head that has a much smaller combustion chamber, and would produce a high-power output with only 10% nitro and is a proven design. I would be in if Brian would made them.
Al
Did you set it up and run it? The Fox uses way less fuel per minute than the Nelson already and I thought you guys were all about the Nitro. If you're dead set on trying a smaller chamber, you can buy a "Blank" from Henry (for $10-12) that has the plug seat, pilot hole, and threads machined and chuck it up in the lathe and make any chamber you want. Keep in mind the Fox case, Rod (including your new one), and crank are not nearly as rigid as the Nelson
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If people want a copy of the nelson chamber I can do that if the orders are there.
I got my order and Brian's work is excellent as in the past. The thing that I'm not too thrilled about is the Tyndall double bubble head inserts. These inserts have a very large combustion chamber. In my opinion, you will have to really tip the nitro can to get power almost like a Nelson 36. This will also cut down on the overall run time per oz of fuel used. I think a better head design would have been to copy the Nelson 36 double bubble head that has a much smaller combustion chamber, and would produce a high-power output with only 10% nitro and is a proven design. I would be in if Brian would made them.
Al
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I haven't tried the Nelson head yet. I'm using the stock head button currently and I'm very impressed with my engine. Looking forward to using it soon.
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When I first started making the double bubble inserts for the Fox MKIII and MKIV engines in the late 1970's I was shooting for more performance without throwing gobs of nitro in the engine and having it self destruct in a short period of time. Just being 4 or 5 MPH faster than the other guys was good enough for me and keeping the engines in one piece was a good thing. At the 1983 NATS, Rich Lopez stated in his Combat article in Flying Models magazine that " Tyndall and ( Steve ) Kott seemed to have the fastest airplanes" ( I also built Steve's engines ) . I personally had to agree with him. Steve finished 3rd and I finished 5th out of 42 contestants. Note that this was before Henry made any .36 engines if I'm not mistaken. Henry's engines , when they came out, made everything else obsolete ( in my opinion ). When this happened I was not flying airplanes anymore I was racing R/C boats ( I still am ). Duke Fox never made a .36 combat engine that was anywhere close to Henry's engine ( Sorry Duke; just my opinion ).
Long story short: I started making the double bubble inserts and stopped making them long before the Nelson .36 came out.
Dick Tyndall
Virginia Craftsman
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If people want a copy of the nelson chamber I can do that if the orders are there.
Thanks Brian, I would take 6 Nelson chamber head buttons.
I have a few Fox MK7 that I run on different type models. One of them is on a Fast combat model, 540sq.in.Wakkerman. Using Power Master GMA 10 nitro my Fox MK 7 pulls it 119 MPH with out a streamer, and yes it uses a lot of fuel. I’m using a Nelson plug and style head chamber that I made, and with some other mods that gave me the extra power. The bottom of the plug is only .135 from the bottom of the squish band. This is no BS as many people has witnessed my Mk7 in action.
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I'm impressed. Your Fox MKVII is 3MPH SLOWER than my MKIII engines that I ran 40 years ago. If I had wanted to run 10% nitro fuel, I would have run the head clearance down to around .008, put on a prop with a little less pitch and a hotter glow plug. It would probably still run close to 120MPH, but might be a little tougher to pull a streamer.
If you want to go fast, buy a Nelson. One just sold on Ebay for $1,901.
Dick Tyndall
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I'm impressed. Your Fox MKVII is 3MPH SLOWER than my MKIII engines that I ran 40 years ago.
Dick Tyndall
How about 6 MPH FASTER WITH A FOX 36x BB in a 19 oz model with official time keepers!
Al
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Al, at what speed are you guys going to .018"
MM 8)
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How about 6 MPH FASTER WITH A FOX 36x BB in a 19 oz model with official time keepers!
Al
[/q Small airplane, thin airfoil, a BAD ASS Scarinzi engine, 50% nitro, .015 lines, been there, done that. Not something that I would fly for a season of combat competition.
You win, okay?
Dick Tyndall
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If you want to go fast, buy a Nelson. One just sold on Ebay for $1,901.
Dick Tyndall
[/quote]
FYI, I own 6 Nelson 36 and the new Fora 36 and my Fox MK7 is just as strong as them. I even did a combat match Fox MK7 vs Nelson, same plane, prop, and fuel. Both planes were exactly the same speed.
Al
Heads attached, The Nelson is a complete head
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Good for you. Now go bad mouth someone else's 45 year old product that doesn't compare to the latest and greatest thing out there.
Dick Tyndall
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I don't think Al's comments were intended to bad mouth your head buttons Dick. More of a comparison.
A few have already requested copies of the Nelson chamber which I'm happy to do if the numbers increase a bit more and someone wants to loan me a head to copy the chamber from.
Brian
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I don't think Al's comments were intended to bad mouth your head buttons Dick. More of a comparison.
Brian
[/quote]
Thank you, I will send you the Nelson head if you need it.
Thanks Al
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Al, at what speed are you guys going to .018"
MM 8)
AMA rules for fast combat have required .018" x 60' for decades. Anything else is irrelevant
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I'll let you know if I need it. At this point there are 12 requested. If we get to 20 I'll proceed with it.
Brian
Thank you, I will send you the Nelson head if you need it.
Thanks Al
[/quote]
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AMA rules for fast combat have required .018" x 60' for decades. Anything else is irrelevant
That's good but they fly Vintage combat on .016" last I knew. I suggested they go to .018" for increased safety but apparently I'm stupid.
MM 8)
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That's good but they fly Vintage combat on .016" last I knew. I suggested they go to .018" for increased safety but apparently I'm stupid.
MM 8)
\
All of the Vintage or Nostalgia Combat events I have been to in TX and AZ were flown on .018". Even "speed Limit" (#329 slow) combat is flown on .018" x 60'
If they're flying on .015" lines it just makes it less safe and makes their "speed" claims less legit
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Well, Why, bring Vintage Combat into your discussion.
Our Vintage Combat days are not matches and we don't fly matches on .015 lines. Our speed runs were to replicate the days when Combat was flown on .015 lines that's why we do it. Everyone who comes can fly on .018's no one will stop you. I even calculated our model weights to speed as the speed flyers use. We are within the parameters of 80% of breaking strength for 1 line as required for speed. Basically, our cutoff engines are the G21-35 and the 36X BB, Not the Baldie, no mark 3-7's, no nelsons.
This is really getting old. WE are just having fun flying the old stuff as back in the day. We have yet to have a line break or a fly away and 2023 will be our 10th year. We are not making false claims, put your money where your mouth is.
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No disrespect: I do find it comical the argument on the double bubble; who, when & why... specially since double bubbles existed, not innovative and used in speed, carrier & stunt long before the late 70's.
It's all good... :-)
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And correct you are. Double bubble head inserts were around years before I started making them for the Fox MKIII's and IV's. I made some for the early Rossi .15's ( 10.5 MM rear bearing engines ) for my Scale Racers before I started working on one that would work on the Fox's. I'm not trying to take any credit for "inventing the wheel" on this because I did not. I knew that it worked on other engines and after much trial and error ( and making A LOT of different kinds of inserts! ) I hit on one for the MKIII's and MKIV's that worked for me ( and for a lot of other people, also ). Just wanted to make something better than what Duke was selling with these engines. And it was.
Dick Tyndall
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How are people finding the performance of the head buttons? (not trying to re-start the fire).
Do people still want buttons done with the Nelson chamber? I'm going to do another run of ST35 peri port this year and can add the Fox 36 CS buttons in with that run.
Brian
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Hate to burst anyones bubble but the double bubble is an inferior design. If you happen to need a very large combustion chamber for some reason, there is a proper way to do a double bubble but, the ones pistured here are not even good for that. Better than Fox heads yes, I agree.
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Hate to burst anyones bubble but the double bubble is an inferior design. If you happen to need a very large combustion chamber for some reason, there is a proper way to do a double bubble but, the ones pistured here are not even good for that. Better than Fox heads yes, I agree.
Please feel free to call Henry Nelson up and tell him his head design is inferior. I am sure that he, as well as the rest of us who actually know something about engines will be amazed by your prowess in engine design.
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Thank you, I will send you the Nelson head if you need it.
Thanks Al
[/quote]
Nelson head is on its way.
Thanks Al
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Thanks Al,
You did send it to my new address? 115 Daintree Drive...........
Brian
Thank you, I will send you the Nelson head if you need it.
Thanks Al
Nelson head is on its way.
Thanks Al
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You did send it to my new address? 115 Daintree Drive...........
Brian
[/quote]
Yes, Tracking says it it departed a transfer airport in Kingsford Smith, Sydney Australia on Feb. 8 at 8:13 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination.
Al
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OK, excellent Al.
You did send it to my new address? 115 Daintree Drive...........
Brian
Yes, Tracking says it it departed a transfer airport in Kingsford Smith, Sydney Australia on Feb. 8 at 8:13 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination.
Al
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Sample Nelson head received. I'll try schedule this in as soon as I can.
Brian
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Sample Nelson head received. I'll try schedule this in as soon as I can.
Brian
Thanks Brian.
Al