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Author Topic: F2D Land on Demand rule  (Read 1894 times)

Offline Brad LaPointe

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F2D Land on Demand rule
« on: November 01, 2012, 07:04:12 AM »
I see on other forums a lot of noise about the land on demand rule for 2013 .This is another noise abatement attempt from Europe . Wisely it isn't mandatory .Up front any contest I'm CDing will NOT use this rule .

If you are running a contest next year I think it would be wise to state if you are using this rule on your contest flyer . Good luck getting any pilots if you are using it .

Also just hitting the ground is a lot simpler / cheaper than a lot of the proposed ideas . I have wondered what they are going to do to those who like to load up for a full bladder test flight ?

Brad

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 04:27:03 PM »
Another obvious scheme cooked up by people who want to get rid of combat.

  • 10-20-70 fuel.
    wrist straps.
    4 mm venturis.
    8 mm mufflers.
    flyaway shutoffs.
    6 mm mufflers.

I'm surprised the event has survived all of this.
Both a flyway shutoff and an on-demand shutoff at the same time might be the straw that breaks the camel.
Paul Smith

Offline phil c

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 05:40:23 PM »
I'm partial to cobbling together something from 2.4 GHz. car radio bits.  Should be able to do it for a weight of less than an ounce.

Rather than another post, I'll add to this in reply to Paul below.  The shutoff would be triggered a failsafe circuit.  When the plane flew out of range of the transmitter it would also  shut off.  RC guys routinely range test their planes.  The 2.4 ghz transmitters mostly have a range check setting to reduce the power, since they don't have an antenna.  Either that circuit or the transmitter antenna could be adjusted to give a signal range of 80-100 ft. or so. The motor would start winding down within a coupe tenths of a second after it left the circle.  I think it was Alex Prokofiev who had a cutaway at the NATS last year.  His electronic shutoff worked, but the plane still flew at least 200 ft from the edge of the circle as the motor was shutting down.

On the other hand, the net idea sounds rather practical.  The pilot circle is 2m radius, the safety circle is 20m radius, the lines are just under 16 meters.  So the net has to be centered a little over two meters in from the safety circle.  So a 2m square net could be hung from the end of a 5m. pole. A T pole a little over 2m high about 1 meter away from the net would allow one pitman to raise the net up on the edge of the safety circle.  The pilot stands on the edge of the pilot's circle and flys into the net.

Even better, if the contest management provided the nets we wouldn't have to pack them up and transport them around.  Don't like a net?  Use a queen size sheet.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 08:30:03 PM by phil c »
phil Cartier

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 08:26:25 PM »
So you put in 2.4 gz radio for the "on demand" and a second system for flyaway.
That's a lot of gizzmoism in a plane where you can wreck eight in routine contest.

Just hitting the ground sounds a lot more economical.  We could have a gentlemen's agreement to never "demand" a landing, with the possible exception of the biannual WC.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 04:50:10 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 09:29:33 AM »
Sounds like the same people that made the emergency rule at the 70 NATS where the contestant could not start his/her own engine during competition.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Brad LaPointe

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 11:32:23 AM »
 Just land the plane . Hitting a net will break more parts than a net .Leave the grass about 4" high .Skip it off the grass sometimes you don't even break the prop .


Offline Paul Smith

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 04:55:00 PM »
Those who own their own F2D venues could plant a purpose-grown on-demand patch.   This would be a great project for The 4-H Club or a science class.  What is the optimum on demand cash crop?
Paul Smith

Offline phil c

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 07:58:42 PM »
So you put in 2.4 gz radio for the "on demand" and a second system for flyaway.
That's a lot of gizzmoism in a plane where you can wreck eight in routine contest.

Just hitting the ground sounds a lot more economical.  We could have a gentlemen's agreement to never "demand" a landing, with the possible exception of the biannual WC.

At the NATS this past year I'm guessing about 1/3 of the matches would have fallen under this rule.  Pancaking in 3-4 planes will cost at least 3 props, $12-16.  That is the cost of the receiver/servo/battery on one plane.

Tall grass would be good.  Just require the contest management to leave the whole field, except the pitting area and the pilot circle at least 4 in. tall.
phil Cartier

ChrisSarnowski

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 05:07:09 AM »
It seems to me that the hard part is coming up with a good fuel shut-off mechanism.

A fuel line pincher seems to need a strong servo (which means big in my thinking).

An electrically controlled valve doesn't look cheap or small either (does someone know of a good one?).

-Chris

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 08:38:15 AM »
I will fially ask, why a land on demand rule?   If it is plane that is unsafe, coming apart, yes smash it into the ground. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline BillLee

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2012, 10:34:17 AM »
It seems to me that the hard part is coming up with a good fuel shut-off mechanism.

A fuel line pincher seems to need a strong servo (which means big in my thinking).

An electrically controlled valve doesn't look cheap or small either (does someone know of a good one?).

-Chris


You don't need a strong servo at all!

Use a "mouse trap" tubing crusher like the speed and racing guys do. Then all the servo needs to do is have enough ooomph to trigger it.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline BillLee

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Re: F2D Land on Demand rule
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 10:49:29 AM »
I will fially ask, why a land on demand rule?   If it is plane that is unsafe, coming apart, yes smash it into the ground. 

John, I'll try and give a little background for you.

As you know, the FAI rules are primarily written by and for the Europeans. We are fortunate that we have at least one or two really GOOD Americans on the F2D subcommittee.

In Europe, the population density is much higher than here in the States (well, at least once you get out of the rabbit warrens of the northeast), and they are very sensitive about noise. Where most of the world doesn't have a problem, they do in Europe, and that is the driving force behind a lot of the noise rules we are dealing with at this time. The "shut-off on demand" for F2D and mufflers in F2C are the two current examples.

For F2D, the idea is to cut down on the noise footprint of a contest. As you know, many F2D matches end up with one or two models with nearly full bladders when the time expires. Shutting them down when a match is obviously over is perceived to lower the total noise output at a contest site. Making a match a bit shorter is supposed to make a contest run quicker and hence, lessen the total noise output. (Yes, LOTS of arguments about THAT!)

So, in 2010, the rule was passed to require "shut-off on demand"  with an effective date of 1/1/13, the idea being that an additional two  years would allow technology to develop to satisfy the rule.

My own opinion is that there are a jillion Murphy's Law examples and "unintended consequences" waiting in this rule set. My opinion is ALSO that there are far better ways to cut down on the noise output at a contest, e.g., some ideas that Phil Cartier has put forth in the past year or so. (Phil, let's make sure we get a proposal written in 2013 for your ideas!)

Bottom line: the "shut-off on demand" is strictly a noise issue, as opposed to "fly-away shut-offs" which address a definite safety issue.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018


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