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Author Topic: Electric combat - Maybe  (Read 632 times)

Offline Gary_Barrow

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Electric combat - Maybe
« on: September 02, 2021, 11:15:51 AM »
So a couple of weeks ago I was at a contest in Houston and we flew ATA and speedlimit. 
There was a young man there about 15ish who was flying and he was pretty good.
Lester from ATA had taken him under his wing last year but this year he kicked him out of the nest.  So him and his father are embarking to the gas motor path.  I watched while they had all kinds of problems.  People helped them but we were all pretty busy ourselves. 
My point is that running a nitro motor is an art that not all people can overcome.  I watch Richard Stubbefield not get his engine started one match and if Richard can't, well that tell something.
Anyway entry into combat needs to be easier.  If someone new does not have a mentor or someone in the know to help, well things get much harder.
I know electric combat, its too slow, etc... But the right setup the engine starts everytime and run consistant every time. 
I love nitro engines but if you look at RC flying it is dominated by electric because it is easy and consistant (you know like the girls you chased as a young man).
Also another kid came to the field and Lester helped him fly a plane.  He was so excited.  But there is no where easy a plane and all the stuff can be bought and get up to even just flying control line.  ie Cox PT-19
Just some random thoughts.
Gary in Lake Charles, LA

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 12:28:59 PM »
So a couple of weeks ago I was at a contest in Houston and we flew ATA and speedlimit. 
There was a young man there about 15ish who was flying and he was pretty good.
Lester from ATA had taken him under his wing last year but this year he kicked him out of the nest.  So him and his father are embarking to the gas motor path.  I watched while they had all kinds of problems.  People helped them but we were all pretty busy ourselves. 
My point is that running a nitro motor is an art that not all people can overcome.  I watch Richard Stubbefield not get his engine started one match and if Richard can't, well that tell something.
Anyway entry into combat needs to be easier.  If someone new does not have a mentor or someone in the know to help, well things get much harder.
I know electric combat, its too slow, etc... But the right setup the engine starts everytime and run consistant every time. 
I love nitro engines but if you look at RC flying it is dominated by electric because it is easy and consistant (you know like the girls you chased as a young man).
Also another kid came to the field and Lester helped him fly a plane.  He was so excited.  But there is no where easy a plane and all the stuff can be bought and get up to even just flying control line.  ie Cox PT-19
Just some random thoughts.
Gary in Lake Charles, LA
If you have ever seen the carnage in the nose of an electric in a crash you might rethink electric fast combat.  With  IC a prop change and dig the dirt out of the venturi and you are good to go. 

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke, don't fix it.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Mike Greb

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2021, 02:49:48 PM »
A lot of the electronic carnage in crashes  Ken referred to can be avoided by the use of 2.4 MHz radio for  motor control.  The Air to Air combat(ATA) event  allows electrics with either a timer of radio for throttle.    Bob Meers uses a surface radio that he holds in his left hand, and another flier in Huston had  a radio operated by someone in the pits. The ATA event does not allow the throttle to be moved in flight other than to off to land the model. With the current technology, one pit will be required if the model is flown near the speed limit.

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2021, 03:09:24 PM »
Just some random thoughts from someone who doesn't fly combat (and who loves slimers, but is switching to 'lectric in competition):

  • If everyone's flying 'lectric, then the playing field is level and the sport is still there -- even if the noise isn't :( .  OTOH, in an all electric match, everyone will be able to hear the pilots trash-talking.
  • It would be interesting to see the impact of 'lectric on something like speed limit -- would 'lectric people start winning on "in the air" time because their planes are more reliable, or would they be thoroughly uncompetitive?
  • Speaking as a circuit designer, there's nothing to keep someone from making an ESC that can detect a motor stoppage and cut the power -- but no one does.  Which I find frustrating, but changing that would be like swimming up a tall waterfall.  I like the radio idea.  Gizmos could be made easily to enforce the "only no or full throttle" thing -- ping me if you're interested.  I'll design it, but not make it.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Gary_Barrow

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2021, 04:01:20 PM »
Ken I was thinking more about something like 1/2 electric or speedlimit.  I will say one negative to the rules at MOST but not all contest is to see who can get up first.  I have usually  been good with engines (that is probably the kiss of death for me) but adopting a 30 second or 1 minute window would limit the pressure on new pilots. 

Mike, Kurt Carlson and I used a pitman at Houston.  I do remember years ago when we only had NICAD batteries for cars, my son and I would race and one of the big componets was you had to make 5 minutes, which meant if you geared too high you would dump before the end.
 
I guess I would like to see CL combat come back, but most of the guys you see flying are old farts like us.  My brother races gas model boats and they have the same demographic.  I think in ATA if you are 64 or above you should start with an extra 50 point or any match for that matter.  Next year we need to move it up to 65 because I will be 65 next year.  Just a thought. 

Offline CircuitFlyer

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2021, 07:21:48 PM »
There is the Stevens Aero Scram https://www.stevensaero.com/product/scram-control-line-combat-model/. Looks like they may have everything you may need to give it a try. For a timer I’d suggest a KR Governor Timer from RSM Distribution. It has prop strike protection to quickly shutdown if the RPM drops too low.
Paul Emmerson
Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Low Cost DIY Control Line Timer - www.circuitflyer.com

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2021, 08:00:35 PM »
Damaged electric  combat model components make crash expensive. Outrunner motors are very vulnerable.  But “start “ and flying is easy. Especially in the noise restricted areas.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2021, 10:53:55 PM »
Sounds like the father and son need to get out and practice their starting routine.  For awhile I watched the Minor's practice.  Some times they would have and engine not want to start.  So that meant a one plane flight.  Then they would figure out the problem.  When I needed practice starting racing engines I would get in the back yard.  Set the plane up minus lines, fuel up and do a warm up start like at a contest.  shut it down and do the race start routine with out releasing the plane.   Let run for what would be the equivalent 20 lap time and shut it down.   Wait 10 seconds and refuel and start.  But it is better when you can get to the circle and practice. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2021, 05:58:26 AM »
Sounds like the father and son need to get out and practice their starting routine.  For awhile I watched the Minor's practice.  Some times they would have and engine not want to start.  So that meant a one plane flight.  Then they would figure out the problem.  When I needed practice starting racing engines I would get in the back yard.  Set the plane up minus lines, fuel up and do a warm up start like at a contest.  shut it down and do the race start routine with out releasing the plane.   Let run for what would be the equivalent 20 lap time and shut it down.   Wait 10 seconds and refuel and start.  But it is better when you can get to the circle and practice. D>K
Engine start depends on the tank type. Suction, pressurised or bladder. Flooded engine cause a delay. Sometimes I wish I had three hands.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline phil c

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Re: Electric combat - Maybe
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2021, 07:04:26 PM »
I've tried electric combat. I "electrified" a Li'l Hacker using a 25-12 motor, an inexpensive motor control, a 3 cell 1000mAh battery, a cheapie car radio for motor control.

It flew just fine.  It could easily do loops and figure 8's.(meant to include this)  It can easily fly combat against a similar plane.  Flyers can learn to fly upside down, do loops, wingovers, and how to align for a cut.

The problems is scaling up.  I see are several.  It is significantly heavier and less powerful than a Black Widow fire wall mounted engine. But the electric version is plenty to learn the basics of flying C/L combat.  It all depends on timing,  learning to feel the plane, learning to fly next to another flyer.

If you want a low cost, flyable training method try "pole" flying using a clay weight to balance the plane, and20-25 ft. lines running through the brackets on an 8-10ft pole.  All three of my kids learned to fly noiselessly(except for the shouting) in the backyard.  After that they all easily learned to fly an engine powered plane and tried contest flying.  Emily learned to sucker guys into the ground.  Alan learned to fly Fast combat and won the open at the NATS the summer he graduated from high school with female guile.   Steph kinda said "ehnnn!  She preferred running the concession stand.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 01:54:42 PM by phil c »
phil Cartier


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