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Classic Designs => Classic Planes => Topic started by: Dennis Adamisin on February 15, 2009, 02:59:19 PM
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I have intentions of duplicating one of my Father's airplanes from 1968. His used a T-bird kit wing (actually a T-bird 2) including the over/under leadouts. Kit wing specs were 56" span & 610 squares, nither the RSM or Brodak kits meet that, and even Larry Richards does not list a T-bird 2.
I am trying to duplicate Dad's bird (T-bird wing original fuse & tail) as close as possible but do not want to pay "collectors" prices for an old Veco T-bird kit just to throw away everything except the wing.
HELP!!!
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You could look for an Aero Engineering kit. They're about as close to a Veco/Dumas kit as they come, but also discontinued and they weren't around for all that long either. The quality was iffy, since the kits I've seen looked like they were thrown together using wood that was many years old, etc.
None of the current Thunderbird kits are the same as the later Veco/Dumas kit. As you've noticed the RSM kit is somewhat smaller. I've got an original Thunderbird built way back from a real Veco kit, and an Aero Engineering kit that are both identical, and the RSM version is definitely not the same plane.
Tom Dixon lists a plan for the Veco kit... But the RSM version is supposed to be the '59 T-bird, and the Veco kit plans don't show enough to build from.
http://members.tripod.com/~TomDixon/plans2.htm
"THUNDERBIRD II - Veco/Dumas kit, 2" version, inverted engine, bubble canopy, 56" span, 610 sq. in. wing. Won '59 Nats in the hands of Bob Palmer. $10.00"
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Okay, why is the RSM T-Bird II different than the origanal? Is it not authentic?
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Hi Clint:
The Veco T-bird spec at 56" span and 610 squares and featured over/under leadouts. The RSM is 56/574 and uses normal side by side leadouts. The Brodak is 54"/569 with side by side. The wing tip shape looks a little different than the Veco kit - but that could be my imagination and some bad photo angles. I'm sure both are authentic to some version of the T-Bird - heck they say the plans are autographed, presumably by Mr Palmer, however, the differences versus the Veco kit mean it would not really DUPLICATE the bird I am looking for.
I am trying to be a stickler (OK I'm being anal!) about replicating a design that used a Veco Tbird 2 wing. See attached pix, courtesy from one of Shultzies posts...
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I don't think anyone is saying that the RSM Thunderbird isn't authentic. What's being said is that the RSM Thunderbird is not the same plane as the Veco/Dumas kit version. RSM's Thunderbird may be an authentic recreation of the 59 Nats Thunderbird, in the same way that Brodaks Nobler is the authentic recreation of the original Aldrich Nobler. But the Brodak Nobler isn't the same as the Top Flite kitted version. It only really matters if you want to build a specific version and can't find what you want.
It's been several years since I compared the RSM kit to the Veco kit, so I don't remember all the exact specifics that were different. The obvious difference is the RSM version is smaller. They both share the same designer, name, and basic appearance. Beyond that they're two completely different planes. At the time I wanted to build a copy of the Veco version, and the RSM version was enough different I haven't touched the kit more then once or twice since about 1998. It's a nice kit, but not what I was expecting.
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Dennis: For your Dad...Heck, I'll send you my Veco T-Bird II kit. It's just sitting on a shelf anyway. You could use it for patterns or...probably a better idea - use it to confirm the accuracy of the Dixon plans and build from them. I built a T-Bird II from Dixon plans about 15 years ago. The plane still exists but is in need of restoration. It flew well and was noticeably bigger than the RSM version. I did not incorporate the over/under lead outs but believe they were shown on the plans (not sure though, it's been awhile). Let me know. 8)
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Dennis, I sent you an E-Mail on this subject.
Bigiron
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Dennis, thanks for that information on the RSM kit. I still have to wonder a little bit about why Eric didn't make it closer to the Veco kit, which is what everyone wanted I'm sure.
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Clint
In retrospect, I probably used a loaded word when I said "authentic". Of course, I meant it in the context of the Veco kit, but obviously Mr Palmer made a lot of T-Birds with variations along the way: upright engine with a turtledeck, round nose, trike gear, inverted engine, with or without differential flaps, some variations in span and area, some with over/under leadouts etc - ALL are authentic, and RSM got a design personally autographed by Mr. Palmer - pretty hard to argue with authenticity like that!
I could also see why they would shed features like the over/under leadouts - a normal set-up with a slider adjustment would be a lot more familiar to the customers. By all accounts the RSM is a terrific kit and probably flies great - and the plans apparenetly were autographed by one of the great designers of all time. I'm sure RSM has lots of happy customers for their T-Bird.
My Dad had a stock T-bird then the bird in the picture built around the T-Bird wing. I remember how amazed I was at the over/under leadouts!
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Clint
In retrospect, I probably used a loaded word when I said "authentic". Of course, I meant it in the context of the Veco kit, but obviously Mr Palmer made a lot of T-Birds with variations along the way: upright engine with a turtledeck, round nose, trike gear, inverted engine, with or without differential flaps, some variations in span and area, some with over/under leadouts etc - ALL are authentic, and RSM got a design personally autographed by Mr. Palmer - pretty hard to argue with authenticity like that!
I could also see why they would shed features like the over/under leadouts - a normal set-up with a slider adjustment would be a lot more familiar to the customers. By all accounts the RSM is a terrific kit and probably flies great - and the plans apparenetly were autographed by one of the great designers of all time. I'm sure RSM has lots of happy customers for their T-Bird.
My Dad had a stock T-bird then the bird in the picture built around the T-Bird wing. I remember how amazed I was at the over/under leadouts!
Thanks for clearing that up a little. Have to agree that RSM kits are top shelf as I have a few, including the T-Bird in question. But I was unaware as to just how many different T-Birds are "authentic" by design.
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AS I recall the T-Bird II story, NW Skyraider's own Bob Emmett drew the plans that RSM later used to make their T-Bird II kits. Bob drew the plans to duplicate the '59 T-Bird that Bob Palmer used to win the NATS ('60?). Palmer did sign off on the plans, but I'm not sure what Emmett used to draw the plans. Maybe the original airplane? I dunno. But I do know Bob Emmett, and I am certain that he did his very best to duplicate the NATS winner.
Previously, the Brodak T-Bird has been mentioned, but that is the earlier version, usually shown with an upright engine, sometimes a 'speed cowl', but sometimes built with a "Smoothie" sorta nose. As with RSM, the push at Brodak has been to make the kit as the designer built and flew it, not as Veco or TF or Jetco (etc.) eventually kitted it. Probably a good thing, in general, tho this doesn't fit your desires real well.
You might try contacting Larry Richards and see if he might be able to help. He does Veco kit replicas that some have complained about as being so accurate that all the errors are duplicated. But, while I'm pretty sure he hasn't cut any T-Birds of any variety, he might be able to help in some way. Last offering I got from his shop was the Pow Wow kit. If you search SSW and StunthAnger for "Pow Wow", you'll find his post about missing tiplet ribs, and then be able to find his contact info...or you could send me a PM or email, as you wish. ::) Steve
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Well,
What I think is that the RSM Version of the T-Bird II is exactly what Bob flew at the '60 WC's which was a different airplane than the one flown at the '59 Nats. Sooo, that makes them both quite Classic Legal and worth 20 points on fidelity for both versions!
Jim Pollock H^^
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Adding up the discussion above, there were obviously SEVERAL versions of the TBird. The ones I can think of:
* Upright engine with bonnet cowl, around 54" span and with turtledeck
* Same as above without bonnet
* Same as above(?) only with round cowl
* A version with trike gear & wheel brake used the one time Spot Landing was included in NATs pattern (I heard of this from Rollie MacDonald)
* The 2nd version Veco(Dumas/Aero Engineering) kit with 56" span, inverted engine, bubble canopy...
* RSM kit version of the 60 NATs winner (?) which has some differences to the 2nd Veco kit
* Undoubtedly a few other variations out there!
Any that can be documented are certainly Classic era, However my goal is to duplicate the "Hustler" and thus my quest (and lots of positive responses - thanx!) for the Veco Tbird wing.
I have not checked with Larry Richards, but he only lists the upright T-bird...
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Dennis, while working with Mr. Palmer on Brodak's Smoothie project, I became aware that Bob liked to use the NACA 4 digit airfoil. I'd bet that the airfoil used on the Veco kit was either a NACA0017, or 0018. It would be relativly simple to loft up a set of ribs. All I would need would be the panel legnth to the point where the semi-eliptical tip starts, the total length from the centerline to the tip, and the root and end of the straight tapered section chord.
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Another alternative would be to contact Pat Johnston. I think he has all the various T-Bird wings in CAD and has a laser cutter. He could probably produce you a wing kit for not too expensive. I can check if you like.
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OK, I checked with Pat and he can cut you ribs with a laser cutter, no problem. Has the T-Bird I on file. He could probably do a T-Bird II set, but would take a bit of work.
Contact him if you're interested. Pretty reasonable costs, too.
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Don McClave and Bob Emmett worked hard to reproduce the T-Bird II. RSM has these plans.
I've made the plane and it's one that I want to do again soon. It's a winner! y1 y1