stunthanger.com
Classic Designs => Classic Planes => Topic started by: Randy Powell on June 19, 2011, 11:00:10 AM
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So, I built a Bill Simons Shoestring. The thing just wouldn't track no matter what I did (and trust me, I tried pretty much everything I could think of and some stuff I invented for the occasion. I couldn't get away from the idea that the problem was the stab. Checking with an incidence meter said it was was find, but by eye, it looked like it had a twist. As Conan Doyle said, once you eliminate everything else, what's left, no matter how improbable, has to be the answer.
So, I started building a new stab and elevators yesterday. I will cut the old stab out and put in a new one then refinish the tail and hopefully, that will do the trick and I'll have a classic plane again.
Ooops, forgot the picture.
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If nothing else....its a beautiful aircraft. H^^
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I'm happy to see you going back to work on this beautiful plane. I sincerely hope the end product turns out as well as you hope. H^^
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Now Id be sitting a pair of 6 x 2s or the like on edge on the bench at the hinge ,
and worrieing the rest with weights significantly opposite to the twist , to let it
ease back straight after a few days .But it could mess with the magnificent finish.
Unless its because the L.E. is a bit soft compared to the spar stiffness ?
NOW if you spent less time messing about with those aeroplanes , you might get the house finished . ! H^^
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Hey, the shop is sheet rocked. That's something. Some day I might texture and paint it ... or not.
I could try to warp it back to shape, but I'm not even really sure which direction. It's clearly not right, but what's wrong isn't. Seems just building another one is more likely to result in a decent flying plane. So, I built another stab and elevator and will cut out the old one, refinish the tail and we'll see what we have. The tail has already been hacked on with a marginal refinish. I'll do it right this time and hopefully have a good airplane at the end.
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Priorities Right in both cases ! . ;D looks functional . H^^
Not giving it a second chance to cause further trouble .
I never use ' rounded ' as in a 1/4 Rad. for L.E. on a 1/2 Stab.
Prefer the cathedral / airfoil bit, can be awkward to do though .
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This is the second Simons Shoe I've built. The first I just did a mild airfoil on the 3/8" stab. The second, this one, I followed the (incorrect) Flying models plane and did the triangular shaping. This is probably the problem or some variation of it. So the new one stab will have the gentle airfoil the first one had. That's by itself will probably solve the issue.
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What about a little more tail area, and a little less elevator? I remember trimming about 1/4" a time from the elevator, (solid sheet) on a stunt model, to try and stop it porpoising in level flight! I think about 3/4" came off before it calmed down. It would've been nice to have fitted a longer elevator horn, so I could've altered the throw, but it was a long time ago.
Cheers
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Neville,
Clearly, the basic design worked fine. The first one I built was a great flier. This one is clearly out of alignment or it's the shape of the stab. Or, who knows, something else. I figure just replacing the whole thing will more than likely fix the issue. We'll see, I have the stab cut out and the new one ready to go in.
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When you say i will not track, are you saying that you constantly need to make corrections in level flight to stay at the same height ????
When inverted do you constantly make the same corrections or are they reversed ?
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Jim,
The term "drunken sailor" comes to mind. It won't stay in a groove. Even when maneuvering, it takes constant corrections to keep it generally on track. It's just unhappy. Primarily out of alignment somewhere.
I have the stab cut out, but it went back on the shelf since I have some other projects that need attention at the moment. I'll get back to it soon.
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Uh, drunken sailors don't pitch, they roll. Been there, done that. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Didm't you spend some time on a Tin Can, or was it all on the Flat top luxury cruisers?
A plane flyimg like a drunken sailor would look like one of those old movie spots of an aircraft, with troubles, trying to land. Up, down side to side, with the throotle going up and down as well. What was that movie? S?P
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Randy I was wondering ...
First question was if it tends to always roam the same direction....
As is drifting up....so you need to correct a little down to make it stay at say 5 foot.....and when inverted....
always sinking....in other words it is always moving away from it's track in the same direction...
Second thing to add to the problem is center of gravity.....
too tail heavy augments the planes ability to stay on track so that minor shifts get bigger....
I realize your a very advanced flier buy 1 thing I did very well even as an aircraft mechanics was being very good at diagnosing problems..often got me in trouble with management but most of engineering and inspection would listen and side with me...
Kind of why I got my A&P coming out of high school when many others could not pass it...
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Jim,
Well, the short answer is no. The pushrod has been moved a LOT. I've dialed in down thrust, It's had the flaps sealed and modified, I added rudder control (ala Al Rabe), and a number of other attempts to get the thing to track. I was able to get it to groove in level flight but then it wouldn't turn outside (this with a couple of degrees of down thrust and maybe 5 degrees of down elevator).
In the end, it was decided that the thing just had a warped stab and nothing for it but to replace it. Several notables in the area have had a go at it and all pretty much agree.
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First time I've seen or heard a real description of what's going on with the Shoestrang, tho I've seen it fly enough. It sounds to me like it needs a sharper LE on the stabalizer, tho maybe this diamond airfoil is part of the problem. It does sound like an airflow attachment issue to me, not a warp. There are some temporary fixes for R&D, but since the old stabalizer is history, I'd suggest sharpening up the LE of the new one. I would like to look at the old one, if you haven't burned it yet. y1 Steve
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I actually had a direction I was headed...
So how much slop was in the elevator....or were the stab and elevator exactly the same .
Maybe you need the stab to sit in a slight void behind the stab..so to have a little area of non-effect...
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Zero slop. Ball Links. Diagnosis was an alignment problem causing the issue. It could be overcome by dialing in a ton of down elevator and some down thrust, but it wasn't fixing the problem, just masking it. The wing looks pretty good, but the stab clearly had a twist in it. So, I'm just putting in a new stab that is hopefully straight.
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Hey Randy,
why dont you just put in a new stab,, maybe that will help? D>K H^^
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Cute, Mark.
I have the old stab cut out. But I've been trying to make sure I get the RMD and the Slider flying right now. And I still need to work on the new sled. The Shoestring moved to the back of the line for now.
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I guess if it was me, I'd consider replacing the stab. 8)
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dang Wayne,, not sure why I didnt think of that,, thats a great idea,, hey Randy, since you have the stab cut out, why dont you just go ahead and replace it,,
did you sort out the motor issue on the RMD yet?
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Mark,
Yea, pretty much. I put a new one in. Right now it's a pipe issues that I was going to see if it worked tonight. But now we have rain and it's supposed to continue until tomorrow.
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Maybe Mark has a stab he's not using from his 109? ;D
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Wayne, that simply was not nice,, now my feelers are hurt, for your information the stab IS in use, it is currently acting as a remote dust collection device to help filter the air in my house, the wind is blowing and it stirs things up, so every surface I have helps get it out of the air,, n1
spare stab my tailpipe,, sheesh,, why I aughta,,,,,, n~
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Yeah, Brother Randy, I think with a tiny bit of modifications, and since you already have the old stab cut out, you should just use the stab from Mark's 109 to replace the old one. he's not using it now........
Geez, when will I ever finish another model?? n~ :##
Love you guys!
Big Bear
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Come on guys, lighten up on Mark. He's working on it. Besides, it's a classic plane. I have to use a Shoestring stab.
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Randy ,thanks for defending me, lol,, The 109 will get done,, sooner than later
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Randy ,thanks for defending me, lol,, The 109 will get done,, sooner than later
Just tryin' to hold ya to it Mark! S?P
And Randy, that 'String is an awsome looking model with a great paint scheme, it would look really goofy with a camo stab. ;D :##
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Wayne,
Looks pretty goofy right now without a stab. LL~
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So, I'm on the Shoestring again. Finally found the real reason it didn't track. Joy. I't coming along. New bellcrank and converting to electric. Should be fun.
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did you have a bellcrank issue Randy?
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Mark,
Well, apparently I went through a phase where I decided it was a good idea to wrap the leadouts normally and just bolt them to the top of the bellcrank. This, of course, tended to pull the bellcrank off center and put enormous pressure on the bearing. Over a surprisingly short period, the bellcrank's bearing is shot and the bellcrank starts to rock around, the leadouts bind at the bolt point and tracking goes to hell. Must have been a brain fart as I did this in three planes (and I've already said, WHAT WAS I THINKING). The Shoe, the Slider and the Ring. First two had the shot bearings and the control system has now been replaced. The third developed pavement poisoning due to a different engineering mistake though that one would have killed it eventually.
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Well we still live and learn. H^^
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So, all day fitting electrics in the nose. Couple of false starts in figuring out the battery hold down. Think I have it now. Should be able to finish that up tomorrow and get back to finishing the beast. What fun.
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oK, it's ready for primer. Right after I put on the fillets. So, it's now ready for primer. Only just about ready.
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OK, here's a pic.
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Looks really clean, did you sand it all the way down or use some sort of stripper?
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With this being electron powered, are you going to test fly before spending all that time on a finish? ???
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With this being electron powered, are you going to test fly before spending all that time on a finish? ???
Why? Electric power is way more predictable than a wet system.
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Mike,
I think he was thinking about the flight issues I had with it. I'm pretty sure I have them fixed.
Wayne,
I used a stripper and took it down to the wood, did some repairs, replaced the stab and elevator, replaced the bellcrank, converted it to electric and am now finally ready to finish it.
It will be a sort of cream, red, a bit of yellow and black.
I'll try to post some pics tonight. Includes some in process stripping pictures. It was a pretty plane and was a shame to strip it down to bones.
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I take it you are done with nitro?
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Bill, not sure. We'll see. I haven't sold my wet motors. And I will probably use them again.
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Yes, Randy, that was mostly tongue in cheek. I also think you're probably under the gun to get finished for upcoming contests. It's not like we have a lot of good weather to go out and test unfinished airplanes anyway. No disrespect meant to Doc.
As far as wet power, the only engines I sold off was my big stuff, and that was to help finance my electric adventures.
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How do you use a stripper and not mess up the covering?
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The reason I asked was I remember Bobby Hunt posting about test flying his creation before finish.
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Wayne, I didn't. I stripped it down to the wood. It needed some other repairs and so that was just as well. Here's a couple of pictures. I even pulled up the fillets.
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Was it stripped using the "Dad's" product then?
I kinda hope you recreate that checker treatment on the tail. I'm not usually into the checker thing, just because it's seen so often, but that treatment was cool. y1
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Wayne,
This was done with something called Zipper Stripper. But it's basically the same as Dad's or Jasco. I got it at Home Depot or Lowe's I think. Worked fine.
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OK, fillets are on, the thing was shot with filler and is now sanded (and my wrists are killing me after 8 hours of sanding) Just need to go back over it with some 400 wet then a coat of clear to lock it down then it is one to base color. I will get this sucker done for VSC. I will.
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Electric at VSC? n1
Lookin' pretty slick though...
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Electric at VSC? n1
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First, be advised that I no longer have any say in how the VSC is run. Haven't been in charge since 2003.
Second: although some seem to prefer Electric in OTS and Classic, it goes against the original intent of the VSC (my opinion only.)
Third: a good friend - who had once told me he would never consider flying electric in OTS or Classic - recently asked if it'd be okay if he brought one to VSC-28. Since we prefer INclusion rather than EXclusion, I told him it would be okay, although, again, it's not really my call.
Fourth: Finally, I must say that the inclusion of Electrics is responsible for my rapidly diminishing interest in the VSC.
For what that's worth . . .
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Just tossing a little smart a-- jab there with my electric/VSC comment. I had no intent on taking away from Randy's thread, just gotta raz him a bit about the combo.
Maybe he'll add in one of those engine sound speaker thingamabobs, probably right after he mixes up the green paint... ;D
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I know of one competitor that stated he would never fly electric at VSC. Of course he won it many times using one of his own designs. I can see electric in some areas, but not VSC. VD~ S?P
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My general feeling is, if we wanted it authentic, guys wouldn't use AeroTiger 36s and PA 40ULs. They'd all be using Foxes and McCoys. I disagree that electric his hurting VSC. It's just another power system. I wanted it because it's more reliable and I've had no end of problems at VSC. Just wanted something consistent. Guess we'll see how folks take it.
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I was looking at the Flying Lines site and saw the pic below. Turns out Mike has been holding out on us. Guess I will have to put a good finish on this plane as Mike is going to beat me by appearance points alone.
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Randy, not really holding out. John gave me a bad time once for not giving him first scoop on Northwest models. I'll put it on another thread.
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yeah and I had to beg Mike for pictures for Stunt news,,
something about me harassing him about his velcro ?
beautifull Chizzler Mike, and Randy, your finishs are nothing shabby either,,
now I need to actually get mine built so I can finish it,,
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Well, the base coat is on mind. Not horrible but I really need to stop using 220 on primer. Takes too much effort to get the scratches out.
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Looks white from here, but I'm betting it's not that simple. ;D
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Yea. It's definitely not white. Very cream colored in person.
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And, the second color is on. ;D
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Here it is. Needs some touch up in a couple of minor places. Airbrush job. Then the next color.
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yepp looks good so far
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Look racy already. y1
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Two more trim colors and some decals. Should be fun.
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Get the green on yet? ;D
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Get the green on yet? ;D
buah ha hahaha
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Strange you should say that....
Had the plague all week and haven't left the chair. But I hope I am now on the back side of it and can move forward soon.
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Here's what it looks like right now. I managed to get enough energy to walk out to the shop and take a picture. Now I'm exhausted. Fun, fun, fun. For once, it actually looks better in person.
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Cool, hopefully you'll feel good enough and you'll get to spend some time on it this weekend. Looks like it's gonna be #26?
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Yea, the number of the Shoestring, The Spud Runner.
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So, the graphics are on. Next it some ink. Joy. Hope I feel better tomorrow.
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So, probably not much ink. I'm getting over pneumonia and don't really feel like hours of inking. So, probably just a touch and shoot clear.
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Pneumonia? Yuk, that doesn't sound like any fun at all. Put the feet up and get better first Randy, the 'Shoe will still be there. y1
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It needs to be done in time for my buddy Pete to put it in his car and cart if off to VSC. But that's still about 3 weeks away. And we have had no weather to shoot clear in anyway. Hopefully soon.
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It should be pretty dry in Tucson, you could always shoot the clear in the hotel room.
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Still feelin' green Randy?
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I'm fine. Still have a cough but I'll live. I hate this plane. Trying to paint in crappy weather is not fun making. It's driving me nuts. But It should be done (or as done as it's going to get) soon.
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Great weather here in Aberdeen last couple days. Time to paint. Richard
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Aberdeen Washington? Wow.
It's all painted. Just trying to rub it out. It's got some real problems but hopefully I can patch it up so it looks decent. It will be about a 14 point plane in Tucson.
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Have fun in Tucson Randy!
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So, I spent about 5 hours polishing a turd today. It will look OK for 5 feet away, I guess. Kinda. I did learn some things with this plane apart from rushing never works out well.
1. Don't use Staedtler Pigment Liner pens. The ink reacts poorly to catalyzed polyurethane (which is why they are decorating the bottom of my trash can now).
2. Putting on decals in really high humidity (about 97% when I was doing this) causes moisture to get trapped under the things. It's not pretty.
3. Trying to hide the edges of a decal by shooting additional clear can come out really badly. Had a bit too much reducer in it and ended up having to replace several decals and just decided to live with the others. Never had so much hassle trying to get something to work. More I tried to fix it, the worse it seemed to get. Ugh!
4. Lastly, I found out the medical grade zinc sterate is crap. I've used it for the last 3 planes I've finished and every one of them had adhesion issues. That is also decorating the bottom of my trash can.
Hopefully the next plane I can take my time and have better results.
OK, rant mode off. ;D
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So,,,,Bring it over here and fly it! It won't get any prettier looking at it!
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Mike, it's not quite done. Have to glue on the control surfaces today and get it assemble and the leadouts wrapped. Next weekend I will test fly it. Pete is hauling it to Tucson for me. Nice guy.
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OK, just for symmetry, here's the final product, more or less.
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Hey Randy, looks great from this side of the country! >:D
I am sure it looks great in person too. Good job hanging with it, refinishes can be trying.
EricV
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Thanks, Eric. It will never happen again. I'd rather build from scratch.
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Hey Randy, if Jim Lee is there in Tuscon, ask him putting the final coat of paint on one of his planes in the motel room on the way there. I remember he had to tie the lead outs and make a set of lines before the competition started. Also it is hard to fathem how many planes made first flight at Tuscon before competition stated. I was one for a couple of years.
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Doc, I've yet to have a completed and tested plane at VSC. Several were maiden flights. I hope to at least get a few flights this weekend before it goes off to Tucson.
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Looks good Randy! Hope you fixed all the issues you had with it before and made the refinish worth it!
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Thanks, Matt. Me, too.
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That's gotta be the "tamest" scheme I've ever seen come out of the "Powellworks", still looks great though. Hope it flies where it's 'sposed to now. ;D
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Well, it's a classic design. Should have a classic paint scheme.
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Well, it's a classic design. Should have a classic paint scheme.
Yup. y1
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does it look like you will get some handle time on it before it ships out for Tuscon?
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Hey Randy, it's should be OK for awhile tomorrow. Give me a shout! two five three, seven nine seven, eight zero eight nine. It would be nice to get the electrics sorted out before you leave.
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Mike,
The weather report says it's going to suck. Am showers, PM rain. So I will probably just take the plane to Pete's on Sunday and hope I get enough flights on Monday and Tuesday to be competitive. Fun stuff.
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Have you been able to squeeze in any flights?
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No flights here at least. Too bad too, temperature Saturday was 65 deg. and 3mph wind until about 6 PM. After that it started getting dark.
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Pounded here all weekend. Oh well, I'll have 3 days of 78 degree weather to get it trimmed. Gee, first flights at VSC. What a shock.
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Randy you can do it. I think there will be others making first time test flights. Just don't go putting stains on that beauty.
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and dont let Miller launch for you unless you have spare props,, just sayin
LL~
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Mark, This has a very stiff tail wheel. Should be OK. Maybe.
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Hopefully you won't need to add an FAI decal either. :)
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Or cut up my canopy when the pilot lets go.
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sheesh, you guys are harsh LOL
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Are you going Mark?
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Mark couldn't make it this year. He will be missed. Picked up the toad today, did some bench trimming and charged the fuel holders. Off to try it out tomorrow.
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Nope, Mark did not make it this year, I want to go again, I also want to make the NATS again. I need to build a new classic plane soon,
I hate that your under the gun Randy, it really sucks not to have the time to get at least some quiet trimming time.
Hopefully the weather tomorrow cooperates. You start flying for score thursday?
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Mark, you too, I myself would like to get back to VSC also. Might bring the poodle with me. Now Randy should have a dozen flights in by now. Hope it goes well for him. I was on the road all day yesterday. Nothing like tax time and having a sister-in-law that retired from the IRS. KANSAS is still killing me on taxes even when I increased the take out.
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Randy, That is one great looking airplane! Love the color scheme, nice layout that compliments the airplane design. Too many airplanes are overly painted with overly done schemes. Kind of like a pretty girl wearing toooo much lipstick. Great job. Richard
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Well, that was quick. Came out on Monday and flew with Gordy, Jim Hoffman and Bart. Got in 3 2 minute flights and got the basics worked out. One full flight with pattern and it didn't fly too badly. A bit nose heavy. Then I decided that I needed shorter lines and did the unthinkable. Hooked them up backwards. Just too many distractions, I suppose along with using unmarked lines (I color code all the lines I make - these were Tom Morris lines). I almost saved it but the poor Shoe is history. Oh well, at least I have my plane for next year all planned out.
I'll go back to crying in my beer now. Sheesh!
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Sorry to hear about this Randy. Nothing like getting in a rush and forgetting routines. Now you have time to help and visit. H^^
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Caught the news in the other VSC thread. That really sucks bad, probably didn't even get to see if the stab fix paid off.
Oh well, just put the feet up and enjoy then Randy, you're still having a better time than those of us stuck back home. :(
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Randy, sorry my friend. 😖
Tom
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Last pic of the Shoe
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Really sorry to see your Shoestring end up that way. It happens, and we know it happens, so I guess that's part of the thrill. I sure liked that one, tho.
For what it's worth, I'm philosophically opposed to relying on color coded line ends/leadouts. Much better plan to make the line ends offset like Paul (and now Mike) does. That saved Mike's new Chizler a few weeks ago. I just think it's better to look at the elevator than rely on color code. I almost messed up once by looking at the flaps, so I like the idea of the offset plan...a lot. :( Steve
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Well, I've used color coding for 30 plus years. Never had a problem. One time I didn't use it, problem.
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Ya know, I think it's not if but when. At regionals a few years ago Don McClave and Pete Peterson both hook got them backwards. Pat Johnston did the same thing with his small shark more recently. Last year I did quite a few laps glued to the ground with my newly re-furbished Freedom 45 before I had the nerve to flip the handle over. Trike gear saved my butt that time.
Mine are color coded and staggered. I still got them backward on my Chizler. With them offset, two inches in my case, even the feeble minded noticed that one line was slack before take-off. Nothing happened, I just changed them and flew.
To each his own, I suppose, but mine will be offset from now on. I too hate to see a pile of debris in the trash can.
No more soap box, see you when you get home Randy.
Edit for grammar, MH
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That is why I leave the up clip on the plane. Roll up from handle. H^^
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That is why I leave the up clip on the plane. Roll up from handle. H^^
Yup, I do that too but still have hooked them up backwards. Luckily, I've never taken off without realizing it and correcting them. But, as Mike said, it's only a matter of time before....
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On every single plane I have I leave the down line clip on the plane. This does not stop you from using the wrong lines. I put my lines in a plastic bag when not in use and mark the reel and the bag. Also I leave the handle attached to the lines and never remove it. I remember as a kid moving lines from plane to plane and adjusting the handle every time. No wonder I never got any plane trimmed out. But I did have fun #^
EddyR
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Everyone has a method. The important part is to develop a routine and stick to it. That's where I fell down. Broke my routine. That won't happen again..
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Well, don't feel lonesome. I've done stuff many times in front of some of the best. It really hurts when one of your heroes is helping. Yes Jack, I now count inverted laps. ::)
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It's OK, Doc. My next classic is well into planning. I'll be back at VSC next year with a new unit.
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Randy,
I guess it wasn't meant to be.
Hope to see you at VSC 2017. I will have my Jet Falcon and my Curtiss Swift, God willing.
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I'll have something, Tom. Still deciding what to build. I have some ideas.....