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Author Topic: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression  (Read 1121 times)

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« on: December 18, 2007, 07:16:14 PM »
Just some notes on Jacks swept wing designs - some of my favorites of his!

Jack certainly published a lot of designs, and as he has said, for every one he published there were probably 3 or 4 more that were not published.  Certainly like any experienced designer he took what he had learned and applied it to the NEXT design.  Thus I think it is interesting to compare and trace the evolution of Jack's Swept wing designs. NO ONE else that I am aware of was even going there:

                                                   Sweep @                                    Frt Leadout
Name          Publ.       LE Sweep        Hingeline     Root      Tip     Span      Rel to LE
----------   -----    -------------   ------------   -----    -----   ----    ------------
Stuntliner    10/65    16°   (7.75")    9.0° (4.5")      13.0"    8.00"    56"      1.56" fwd   
Sea Vixen     4/66    16°   (7.5")      7.7° (3.5")      12.0"    7.75"    52"      2.00" fwd   
Demon         8/66    11.5° (5.5")     6.3° (3.0")       12.0"    8.50"    53.5"    .50" fwd   
Swinger       1/67    14.5° (6.75")  10.3° (4.75")     12.0"    9.00"     52"      .50" aft   
Freedom 45  5/68    14°    (8.0")     5.8° (6.5")       13.0"    9.25"     64"    1.50" aft
Torino         1/69     9.3°  (4.25")    2.8° (1.25")     11.5"    8.25"     52"    2.5" aft   
Scotsman     2/69  Could not dimension, looks same as Torino   
 
all measured from plans except Sea Vixen and Freedom 45 which were scaled off magazine plan page.


Not a lot of big points to be made, looks like he was reducing the sweep in later designs, and made a big effort to move the leadouts inside the wing.  Except for the Freedom 45 they are all about the same size.  Of these I only saw the Stuntliner (flew good) and the Torino (flew REAL good) fly.

I guess maybe the point of this is: folks have teased Jack about his designs being "...10 years in the making" or such thing, but in none of the articles I have does he actually say that.  However, when you trace some of the design parameters like this, you can see the evolution of the swept wing design series...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 02:04:27 AM »
Denny,

I commend you on your research of Jack’s Swept Wingers.

Your table shows the “Sea Vixen” having a 52” span. The FM plans page description says 56”. That made me call Jack, and he confirmed that the FM drawing (52") is wrong. The actual wing span was indeed 56”.  If you look at the many construction pictures I have shown of my “Sea Vixen” progress, you will see red lines on my drawing where I made the changes that Jack told me to make in order to have an airplane that was true to his.  The boom side detail was also omitted from the FM drawing (although Jack had it on the plan he submitted). Jack told me to make the booms the length shown on the side view of the FM drawing, at the location shown in the plan view. This makes the actual tail moment length longer due to the hinge line sweep.
Another blaring mistake on the FM drawing was the height of the I-beam at the wing root. This was a pure drafting error that resulted in the spar height being ¼” too short. I had to make a second spar because I did not check that dimension before I started the spar.

 I have some points to add, on Swept Wing Stunt history. I hope that maybe some people can add more, since I certainly am not an expert on the total history.

There were some swept wingers before Jack’s, notably: The “Wicked Witch”; “Curtiss Special” Lloyd Curtiss 12/56 American Modeler; and “King Sweep” Larry Grogan, 9/59. The“Super Sonic”,by  Bernie Ash, 7/66 Flying Models, was probably influenced by Jack,since Bernie flew with Jack.

Jack obviously did more development with the Swept Wing Stunters than any one else. He even had an RC version of the “Sea Vixen”.

It is interesting to note that the theories concerning a swept forward hinge line are directly opposite to the swept wingers.

The only recent Swept Winger that I can think of is Don Hutchinson’s “F-86”. I have seen that airplane fly many times, and can attest to it being a very good flying stunter. Don also had a profile version of the F-86 that flew very well.  That airplane and the many new scale type stunters have made me think that we have been very restricted in our thinking in the past. With a new open mind, this hopefully will lead to some interesting new designs.

I can only add that any new design Swept Wingers will be a testament to Jack’s developments, and out of the box thinking. His constant desire to push the envelope continues today, with a new airplane that he is currently working on for CL Scale.

This is why he certainly deserves the honor of having a perpetual award in his name at VSC.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 02:26:41 AM by Tom Niebuhr »
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 04:09:16 PM »
Tom
Thanks for the comments.  It is fun doing this sort of thing. 

Yes, I was aware of your Sea Vixen research, but did not know how it all shook out - that's why I scaled off the magazine plan sheet.  For the purpose of just showing the progression I thought that would be adequate.

More importantly, I simply did not know HOW you stretched the wing - it could have made small changes in the sweep numbers and or leadout location.  For example when the span stretched from 52 to 56" how did you do that?  Did you just move down the span another rib spacing or two? that would change the tip chord.  if you increased the span but maintained the tip chord, that would affect the sweep - LE or TE or both!  If  you moved the tip formers straight out it would reduce the sweep just a smidgen.  Then what happened to the leadout position?  Those things would have changed the numbers a little, but not made a big change in the table from the standpoint of the progression.

As you noted there are other swept wings out there that may or may not have influenced Jack or been influenced by him.  Jack's Knight has a straight TE but a LOT of LE taper - it is effectively a swept wing.  The ME-262 published by Jim Vornholt looks like it has a LOT of Jack Sheeks in it!  Bernie Ash's SuperSonic Stunter - didn't he do something strange like put the engine in the wing ala Mackey's Monster?  Wish someone could post a Plan Sheet on that!

I think it was Bob Baron who coined the expresion that "pioneers get the arrows in their heads".  By that standard, our ole buddy Jack must look like a pin cushion!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2007, 10:59:06 PM »
Funny this came up. I'm working on a Freedom 45. I was wondering about the CG reference to the leadouts at the wingtip.  CG isn't shown on the plans.  By my figures I thought the leadouts may have to be about 1.5 inches ahead of the leading edge at the wing tip.  I'm farther along now, put most of it together today and the CG looks pretty good!  My leadouts are of course, adjustable, but I was a little worried about not being able to get them far enough forward.  One thing for sure, the airplane is cool!  The pictures are after four weeks of work.  I'll have it at VSC hopfully flying well. 

Mike Haverly
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2007, 08:36:39 AM »
Brother Dennis,

I do believe that Jack, Bernie, and the younger Jin Vornholt, all shared a lot in their design theories along the time the Classic planes were coming out and they were all competiting at the NATS.

Jim flew Bernie's Airon, and Jack's FW-190 is very, very similar by Jack's own admission to the Airon.  I have checked the rib template for the Airon and FW-190 and other than root length, the airfoils are the same.  Jack told me he built an Airon or two! :D
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2007, 08:48:05 AM »
Mike, looks good so far. Looking forward to seeing it in teh spring. If you want to see how a shop is supposed to look see the pictures of my 109 in progress in open forum. I always make a point to clutter up my bench so that Ty and others dont see how terribly neat I am, dont want them feeling bad you know? LL~ LL~ H^^
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2007, 06:17:14 PM »
Mike H:
FABULOUS F-45!  Never saw one before, now i'm jealous!   H^^ CLP** BW@

Ditto the comments on the clean  orderly shop.  Mines messy too but unlike Ty I don't worry about it.  I spent the last two nights trying to clean out all the junk, now I can't find the airplane I was building!

Ty:
I find that if I use enough flash I can burn in my airplane photos brite and the shop fades to black...!

Brother Big Bear:
I have been amassing a colection of Sheeks plans.  Looks like a LOT of the early designs used the SAME rib.  You know those I-Beams better than I: if you have a long rib just cut it to length and you are good to go.  I figure Jack cut them by the barrel full then built til the barrel was empty!  Later designs also appear to use a different airfoil but again carried across a couple of designs - ditto supply/demand.

I just got Jack's Spitfire plan - I think it is a very pretty airplane, one of the best of Jack's Semi Scales.  Someone here in the Forum mentioned they were building one... Doc???
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2007, 08:41:07 AM »
Isn't it great to see all these Sheeks airplanes being built!

Mike,
Your "Freedom 45" is looking great. I think that it is an excellent choice.

Dennis,
After discussing the "Sea Vixen" wing span with Jack, he agreed the solution was to add ribs straight out.(Perpendicular to the fuselage)

The tip chord is the same. The resultant sweep angles change a very little bit. The leadout position change is very little. One of my next challenges is to have a little leadout adjustment. I might use the technique that Don Hutchinson used on his F-86, by having one leadout move... stay tuned.

Merry Christmas to all!
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Offline Airacobra

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2007, 11:47:31 AM »
Mike, I tried earlier to post the pics of mine, I will try once again here. My Freedom 45 was built using a foam wing I cut. The plane is painted with all Sig dope. The Freedom flies pretty well, I used a ST 46 first and then the LA 46. The plane flies equally well with either engine. I found mine needed some tailweight which was easy to conceal in the tailpipe. The swept wing gives a very cool look in the wingover, you will like it. I did find that mine had a  tail wiggle in square corners that I never really liked. I hope you enjoy your Freedom 45 , I know I like mine.
Keith Bryant

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Sheeks Swept Wing Progression
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2007, 11:58:43 AM »
Keith: GREATF-45!  Always liked that color scheme - nice way to blend in the blue LA46 too!

I presume the bird is still active? If so you are ALL set for VSC!  H^^
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!


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