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Author Topic: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67  (Read 5468 times)

Online Ty Marcucci

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More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« on: February 09, 2008, 06:50:50 PM »
I don't know whose planes these are, but I had fun taking pictures of them. If anyone knows, speak up. H^^

OK, I do recognize the blue and yellow plane, that is Lenny Gadomski modified Nobler at it's first meet. The gent in the suit, came with another gent, also wearing a suit. I think they were from Cuba or Puerto Rico. Very formal and polite.  The gent in the tee shirt with the metallic pink Nobler, I asked who he was and was told he was "some potato farmer from Maine".  I still don't know if this is fact or just a wise crack, but some guys from Maine did show at the contest.  n1
 We usually had combat, stunt and scale at the same meet. Sam Abdow ,from Fall River, Mass, a club member, always flew scale. I saw his photo years later in FM and he sure got better with each plane.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 08:59:51 AM by Ty Marcucci »
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2008, 09:57:53 PM »
The bottom picture, center two from left to right are Jean Pailet's red Skylark (original design, not Southwick) and Jim Kostecky's blue and navy Talon.
Chris...

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2008, 12:47:49 AM »
I always thought Pailet's Skylark was a cool looking plane. Don't know if it flies very well, but it is sure attractive.
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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2008, 09:25:35 AM »
Just one correction here... That Jean Pailet plane pictured is not his Skylark; that is the Zephyr! The Zephyr had a double taper wing as can be seen in the photo. There was a straight center section and about half way out on each wing panel the taper began. However, it was not designed originally to be that way. As Paul Harvey would say, "Here's the rest of the story."

A year or so before the Zephyr appeared on the local stunt scene in the New York/New Jersey area, Jean was flying a design he called the Pegasus. That was a twin-boom ship and it appeared in FM as a construction feature in the early 1960s. Apparently he was not too enamored with the flying qualities of that design and he soon stripped the twin booms from it and constructed an aft fuselage to mate to the one that was essentially a center pod that held the engine and tank on the original. The result was the Zephyr. I know this to be fact because you could easily see the area on the wing under the finish on the Zephyr where the booms had been. Adding to the proof... and I cheated here... I consulted with Jean, with whom I still stay in pretty close contact... and he confirmed it. The flaps on the Pegasus went only from one boom to the other. When Jean cut the booms off he did not extend the flaps to the end of the wing on either side, but instead installed a fixed portion that ran from the end of the flaps to the tip. The result was a very good flying model that has been sadly overlooked by those who fly in Classic Stunt. It really does deserve to be reprised!

More interesting facts about the Zephyr: The photo in the post above depicts the second paint scheme on the Zephyr. When he first brought it out it was in a red, white and blue scheme. He repainted it with the red, maroon and white scheme and renamed it the Playmate.  Being that it was flown in competition in the 1960s under both names, you could legally build it and cll it either a Zephyr or a Playmate. 

More: Note that the Zephyr does not have a split elevator. The elevator is a one piece affair that extends aft of the fin. Because the fin is swept back to a great degree, the eye does not really focus on the elevator sticking back past the end of the fuselage in flight. I mention this because it makes this model a bunch easier to build!

Jean flew the Zephyr with a muffled Fox .35. He was the first one I know of to use the Uniflow muffler that was made in the UK. I remember well the first time he showed up at a local meet with muffled ship; we were all struck by how smooth it seemed to fly! I now realize that with the growl of the Fox subdued, the impression was one of tremendous smoothness in the overall presentation. It was the start of a revolution!

Jean was a good stunt flier, but not a great one, and that is why the Zephyr has been relegated to a footnote in East Coast stunt history in my opinion. Jean was - and still is - an extremely talented and innovative Free Flight designer, builder, flier. In fact he has a new A2 Nordic design appearing in the next issue of Model Aviation (March 2008 issue). He liked to dabble in stunt, but he competed seriously in F/F. Because of his somewhat laid back attitude towards stunt competition, he was able to focus on innovating rather than having to stay in a practice regimen that would dictate a more traditional design approach of producing models that would be guaranteed to work. Going off the beaten path had its bumps, and the Pegasus was apparently one of those. But out of that came the Zephyr, which was a resounding success in my opinion. He also experimented with off the beaten path engines. There was an article in FM on how he modified his Skylark design (the one with the elliptical wing) to accept the Aero .35 engine. That engine had the cylinder running parallel to the crankshaft, and it could be cowled in to make an extremely sleek nose shape (Kind of like electric motors... Sorry, couldn't resist), Jean never did get the proper running characteristics for stunt from the Aero .35, but he gets full marks for innovation and trying! 

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2008, 12:32:23 PM »
Hi Ty:

Nope, wasn't Jean. He is very involved with FF, but not stunt anymore. I doubt that we'll ever see him in Tucson. And, I'm very sure he's not into hot cars either. Must have been a different cat.

Bob

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2008, 02:03:30 PM »
Sorry, the Zephyr. I knew that, too. I've been looking at that plane in the Classics book for a long time and it's on my list of eventual builds. For some reason, it just strikes me a very slick ship.
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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 02:50:25 PM »
Tell you what, Randy; you commit to building one and I will too! That one is a natural for my Lost-Foam building system. The outboard tapers can be easily made in that system. I actually have Jean's original PENCILS of that model and also the original pencils for the Skylark. The ones at Carstens (They have the Zephyr plan) are so beat from years of use that a new mylar needs to be made.  We can even come up with a "team" paint scheme that doesn't have bronze in it! (Of course I'll paint the tank compartment in mine bronze just so I don't implode...)

By the way, I just recently closed the deal with Carstens to be the official foam cutter for their plans service. I'll soon have information out about that and an official announcement will be made by Carstens. I'll be able to cut foam cores for all the models that were presented as foam wing ships, Lost-Foam built up wing cradles for all the ones that were presented as built-up models, and criss cross: Lost Foam fixtures for models that were presented as foamers and foam wings for those that were presented as built-ups. That deal of course is for all the RC wings as well. I'm going to be a busy. er, ah. busier boy!

Bob

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2008, 04:32:05 PM »
And I thought you said you were retiring.  At least your having fun, I hope.  DOC Holliday
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2008, 05:56:05 PM »
Hi Doc:

I never said I was retiring from all work, just from Model Aviation... and even that turned out to be a half truth as I'm now the Editor Emeritus, which is a stipened consulting position.

The foam wing and Lost-Foam wing business has exploded since the word got out that I'm doing that essentially full time again. I'll be just like my dad and nevr actually stop working; I enjoy it too much! HB~>

Later - Bob

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2008, 06:14:20 PM »
Attached are pages from the articles on Jean Pailet's Skylark & Zephyr  Lotsa similarity in the fuselage the Zephyr has a somwhat faster canopy slope.  Note that Jean was using the NASA Laminar flow sections.

Personally I really like the Skylark, but would cheat the windshield so it matched the Zephyr!
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2008, 07:58:08 PM »
Very neat Dennis:

The plans that I have from Jean are the originals from which these were made. To fit properly in the magazine, the draftsman cut the wing in half and superimposed one part over another as required to fit the page aspect ratio (Probably 35 x 50 inches in this case). They didn't publish too many plans in those days that weren't a multiple of the 7 x 10 page formula.

I'm going to trace and ink the plans that Jean sent me so that all of the parts are separated and the full wing is shown. The plans will be a bit longer and will cost a bit more to produce, but they will also be much easier to build from. Of course I will first get permission from Carstens Publications to do this, as they still hold the copyright to that design.

One of the things that really frosts me is that there are many out there who are wholesale ripping off plans from magazine plan services or from the individuals who originally designed a given plane. This is just stealing pure and simple. This stuff is copyrighted, even if the individual did not go through the formal copyright process. I've looked at several plan service catalogs or plans lists and have seen dozens of plans being sold that I know for a fact belong to a currently solvent and operating magazine or are the intellectual property of a specific designer from whom they have not received permission (I even saw someone selling Genesis plans! And I certainly was not contacted about permission!). This has to stop or no one will want to release any new designs to the public.

I've just finished inking the Frisky Pete plan, which was published in a Fawcett Publication book and authored by Cal Smith,many years ago (1952 to be exact). That publication is now defunct, but for years I actively sought the owners to get permission to redraw and sell that plan. They were nowhere to be found. Failing that I tried to find S, Calhoun Smith's widow to get her permission and offer her a stipend from the sales. I could have had this one out for consumption years ago, but I just had to be certain that I had exhausted every possible avenue to get fair rights to it, or at least permission to sell it. Apparently Mrs. Smith remarried and of course changed her name. No one in the modeling world that I've been able to contact knows of her whereabouts. So I have decided to go ahead and make that plan available. Interestingly, there were many small errors on that plan and in the redraw I think I've reconciled them all. I still don't feel right about offering it, but I have done an exhaustive search for the rightful owners of the design and have come up empty. If someone with a claim does indeed surface, I will ask that entity if selling this design is acceptable to them, if they want a piece of the profits (small as they are...), if they want me to cease and desist or if they want to take it over and sell them on their own. Any of these is fine with me. What I will vow to do is to donate $1.00 from the net profits of each sale of a Frisky Pete plan to the AMA Scholarship Fund in Cal Smith's name.

It's not just plans either... There are kits now being produced for which I know the kitters have not even done a cursory search for those who might have legal claim to the rights. I won't blow the whistle on them here or anywhere else, but I bet I sleep better at night than they do. Or maybe those souls are so devoid of morals that they can rip off someone else's property without even so much as a token search for the rightful owners and also sleep well. That's certainly a sad thought...

Model airplane designs are no different than any other property. They belong to someone. If anyone is making money from the sale of those designs without permission, they are stealing.

Okay, soap box stowed for another day. Now for some good news: I am going next week to pick up the last remaining example of an original Judge. This was a plane designed and flown in late 1967 and 1968 by Gene Schaffer and Robby Finestein. Robby's is still in very good shape and he is lending me the ship so that I can measure it and make accurate plans. I know for a fact that it was designed and built around an extended foam Chipmunk wing, so the rest should be easy. I hope to have this one drawn and ready for sale at VSC this year, but that might be cutting it close. It will be done before summer at any rate. And, yes, I have received permission from both of the designers to draw it and offer it for sale.


Later - Bob Hunt

Offline gary tultz

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2008, 08:22:03 PM »
Bob, "Spinaflow" muffler. I had one in the 60s, VERY quiet,                                                 Rainman,   aka  Gary T.   H^^

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2008, 08:36:33 PM »
Yeah, Gary, and boy did they ever look cool! It's interesting to me that in that timeframe there were those who hated the idea of using a muffler. Now everybody uses them (We're talking stunt here...) and they love them. But, it is some of those same people who are against electric power because it doesn't make any noise! Go figure...

The noise thing I can almost understand (almost). It's the other argument that with electric power there is no smell that really makes me laugh. That's the part my wife likes best!

Bob

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2008, 10:51:44 PM »
Bob,

I don't know, I like the smell of burning Castor in the morning.   ;D

I would certainly commit to build a Zephyr. I'm working on a Bill Simons Shoestring right now. I loved the one I had before and will power this one with a more reliable powerplant. That's certain. After that I have to finish my current PA plane. But the Zephyr could be next up after that. You don't have to use my ridiculous paint schemes. I am easily carried away with that stuff, often to my detriment. I'd prefer to use yours. Perhaps for VSC next year, a Zephyr would be a cool entry, though if I could get started on one this summer, I may be able to have it done before season's end. Sure would be fun. I have no idea what I would power it with. That will take some noodling.

I will be at VSC this year <and the crowd goes wild> Man, I really have to get out of the rain for awhile and dry out.
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Offline Airacobra

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2008, 09:51:30 PM »
I have my eyes set on the Uranus. Have you all checked it out?
Keith Bryant

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2008, 06:32:22 AM »
Hi Randy:

I don't know about you, but for that size plane there is only one engine choice for me and that's the AeroTiger .36 from Randy Smith's Aero Products. I have been running one in my Caprice for five years and it is by far the most powerful engine of its size range that I've ever owned. It's also extremely tuneable and has a wide envelope of run characteristics to choose from. Fitted with a tongue type muffler that has a series of outlet holes, I can tap the holes and use 4-40 set screws to adjust the back pressure in very fine increments. That engine likes back pressure!

As far as the trim scheme goes, I sort of like the scheme Jean originally used, but could be persuaded to develop a new one that we both like, or if more come on board in this project we could have a "discussion group" to hammer out the quintessential paint scheme for that model. With the swept back fin and the neat wheel pants, there are lots of styling ques with which to work to develop a flowing scheme. Perhaps, since it will be aimed at the VSC in Tucson, we could pick up ques from the topography and the natural colors of the mountains, which, at sunset, glow a bright bronze color... H^^

Later - Bob

 

Offline Bill Little

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2008, 07:01:24 AM »
Quote
we could pick up ques from the topography and the natural colors of the mountains, which, at sunset, glow a bright bronze color...

gee, somehow I just knew that was coming...... LL~ LL~ LL~

(BTW:  Thank you Bob, from Gail, too.  It meant more than you will ever know)
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2008, 10:17:45 AM »
Yeah, Gary, and boy did they ever look cool! It's interesting to me that in that timeframe there were those who hated the idea of using a muffler. Now everybody uses them (We're talking stunt here...) and they love them. But, it is some of those same people who are against electric power because it doesn't make any noise! Go figure...

The noise thing I can almost understand (almost). It's the other argument that with electric power there is no smell that really makes me laugh. That's the part my wife likes best!

Bob

Hey Bob, another product out of the Hunt Works?  A cologne for men that smells like burnt castor.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2008, 11:59:14 AM »
Sounds fine to me, Bob.
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2008, 12:07:19 PM »
What a coincidence???  I've only just seen this thread on the Zephyr, as a few weeks ago I enlarged the drawing from the old FM magazine. So now I can turn the motor upside down and call it a Playmate? Not keen on upright motors.

Cheers   Neville
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 02:02:55 AM by Neville Legg »
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Online John Miller

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2008, 01:24:45 PM »
For what it's worth, Several years ago, maybe 5 or more, I drew up a new set of plans for the Zephyr that made it a take apart plane. I did this in CAD. I cut out all the ribs, but that's as far as I got at the time.

Bob, do you have the ability to display a CAD drawing?  If so, let me know.

Here's a webpic of the Cad plans. In preparing them, I found out that I started the plans back in '98. Wow, time sure flies.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 04:07:30 PM by John Miller »
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2008, 05:12:28 PM »
I may have to talk with you John, since I don't currently have a set of plans for the Zephyr.  :)
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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2008, 07:59:37 PM »
Need to be careful here guys! This is exactly what I've been talking about. The Zephyr is a copyrighted design of Flying Models magazine. None of us can sell the plans for this one without written permission from Flying Models! They still own the rights to this model!

Even though I have the actual pencils from Jean for this model, and they are drawn differently than the plan that appeared in the magazine, I cannot offer them for sale as they are still of a copyrighted design. We cannot simply redraw a model that has appeared in a magazine and consider it ours to sell! I am going to ask FM if I can offer them, and when I get - if I do get - written permission I will begin selling them. I'm trying to do the right thing concerning this issue and it frosts me that there are others out there who refuse to.

Even if the magazine has gone defunct - like Model Builder and RCM - the rights to those plans may have been bought up by someone. Even if they haven't, then I'm pretty sure that the rights revert back to the original designer. Even if they don't, it is not right for us to make money on someone else's intellectual work without at least contacting them and asking for permission. In this case, even if FM was not in the picture, we'd have to get Jean's permission.

Like I wrote in an earliert post, I've seen ads for people selling plans for models that I've designed! And, without my permission or the permission of the magazine to which I sold the design! That is stealing! And from now on I will pursue legal action when I see it happening.

If you want plans for a certain model, search out the plans service to which it belongs and order one!

A very concerned for our hobby - Bob Hunt
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 08:28:45 PM by Bob Hunt »

Offline Airacobra

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2008, 08:55:32 PM »
Sorry guys, not the Uranus, it is the Pegasus. Twin boom looking much like the Zephyr! 
So Bob, where can one get the plans for these planes?
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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2008, 10:19:59 PM »
Hi Keith:

I'll contact Henry Carstens (Now Publisher of Flying Models magazine as he has recently taken over that position from his father, Hal, who is now semiretired) and ask him if we can have permission to redraw that design and offer it for sale. I already have Jean Pailet's permission to do so pending Henry's okay. That goes for the Pegasus and the Skylark as well...

Now, Neville brings up an interesting question in his above post. If you notice in the photo (and I forgot this) when Jean repainted the Zephyr and named it the Playmate, he also inverted the engine, technically making this a new design in the process (Technically...). That would mean that only Jean's permission would be needed to draw up the "Playmate" and offer it as yet another Classic design. We could do that... I won't! I still believe this to be an extension of the original Zephyr design. I think all of this will end up being academic as I'm almost certain that Henry will gladly exceed to our request to allow us to draw and offer the Zephyr in plan form. On that resulting redraw (Tracing?) I can add in the inverted engine detail and mention that built in this version it is the Playmate.

I feel that by going the extra distance and getting proper permission form all entities concerned we will not only add to the ever growing list of available Classic designs without infringing upon the rights of the designers or those who hold the copyrights to these designs, but we'll all feel better about ourselves as well! y1

Later - Bob Hunt

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2008, 12:36:15 AM »
Sorry Bob, Based on your above comments, I had the idea that the plans were no longer available from Flying Models. If they are, that would be great. Or is it that the flying models version is somehow incorrect? I misunderstood. Of course I would want to use a version from an approved source! Just wasn't sure that Flying Models still had it.

If you can get permission to draw up a correct version, that would be great.
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2008, 02:10:53 AM »
I assume that it is ok to make your own set of drawings from the magazine? After all a full drawing is shown and a scale is usually drawn in the bottom of the plan!!

Cheers   Neville
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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2008, 08:50:41 AM »
Hi Neville:

Yes, certainly a modeler can scale up the plans for his or her own use, and as you mentioned, that's why they include a scale. In the old days most modelers would do that using dividers; it was just part of the model building process! I'm all for that! However, if one was to opt to purchase the plan, it should be purchased from the entity that holds the rights to the design.

Even having something copied out of a magazine by Kinkos or the like is, I'm told, a violation of copyright.

I hate to be the Grinch in all of this, but the feelings run deep with me about this subject. Having been in the publishing industry for most of my life - and the hobby publishing industry at that - I'm acutely aware of such things as copyrights and also fair play when it comes to insuring that those who have earned the money (small amounts though they may be...) for doing a piece of work, get that money! Nothing will ruin our sport quicker than for any of us to begin assuming that anything that is published is fair game for us to copy and sell. People who may be inclined to create and publish will start to think twice, and publishers who are supporting our hobby/sport will stop publishing original designs. I'm sure that none of us want that!

One might ask, "Okay, Bob, what about plans for models that were published in magazines that are now defunct and/or for which the designer cannot be contacted?" That's the issue with many of the Classic and Old Timer subjects it seems. This is where we need to be as creative in our search process as we are in every other facet of our modeling. I'd start by contacting the AMA historian, the AMA librarian and the director of membership to see if a trail can be established. A Google search might turn something up. A few calls to fliers from that era who are still with us may provide a clue. No stone should be left unturned in the effort to find those who are the true owners of the rights to a model. Legality to me is not as great an issue as is doing what is morally correct in this matter.

None of us should knowingly profit from another's work without their permission. The chances are that the actual designer (or his or her heirs if he or she has passed on) will gladly sign off on having someone make the design in question available again just to preserve the memory of the model and have it available to others. But, the process starts with that permission.

I want to preserve the designs of our past and see them flying long into the future just like everyone else. I revere all of the designs of the past; I revere their designers even more!

Okay, I'll stow the soapbox on this issue permanently now, or at least until I see evidence of a blatant transgression. At that point I will jump back in, blowing the whistle like the mad man that I am! n1

Bob Hunt

Offline Neville Legg

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2008, 11:22:17 AM »
Hello Bob,

Correct me if I'm wrong, (I usually am!) but by using the Mk1 eyeball alone, the Playmate looks different in several ways to the Zephyr? The wing looks to have a higher AR and the tail moment looks longer! And I can't see the kink in the LE. This might be a trick of the camera? Mind you my eyeballs need strong optics to correct them! (getting old!)

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Online John Miller

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2008, 01:29:46 PM »
Bob, I too am concerned about copywrite laws.To the effect that I went to the Government CopyWwrite office's web site, and did an extensive search to learn exactly what the laws and rules are.  It matters to me because of the many drawings I've produced. Like you, I've had the pleasure of seeing my drawings offered by others.

The drawing I did of the Zephyr was for my use. While true to the outline, it has several changes in structure, and differs from the original due to the fact that it's designed to take apart. The wing removes, the vertical stab, stab and elevator all remove. My reason for posting it was to show the result of my work, not to sell copies of the plans,  I also wanted to show you the work already done with the idea of making it available to you to help in your desire to produce a new set of plans for the Zephyr. That's why I asked if you had the means to display a CAD file.

Now, it was about 10 years ago that I researched the CopyWrite office's web site, but from memory, which, admitadly, isn't all it used to be, here's what I believe I found.

Up until some where in the 70's or 80's copywrites had to be applied for and granted by the CopyWrite office. I found that Patents for model airplanes, real, full sized airplanes, and other common use items are no longer granted, so copywrite is the only protection you get for your intellectual property. The old copywrite ran out in a similar fashion as patents, and I believe they passed when the copywrite holder passed.

At the point in the 70's or 80's there was a change made. Now, a copywrite is automatic, when the document is created. It is no longer necessary to obtain one from the CopyWrite office.  Nor is it necessary to include the CopyWrite symbol, year and name, though it's a good idea to include them on your drawings.

Some of the existing CopyWrites, (I'm assuming the ones in force at the time the change was made), were changed to the new standards. Not all, but some.

The new standards give the rights to a copywrite to the heirs of the holder for a specific term, and it's over a 100 years after the death of the holder.

Now, here's the sticky wicket.

Art works, which is what plans and drawings are considered,  can be worked around when there are sufficient changes made. Different placements can be a part of it, but is usually insufficeint on it's own to overcome a copywrite. Additional details, changes in other areas, such as construction and sub assemblies, 1 sheet to 2 or more sheets etc. can be enough to constitute a new piece of art, worthy of it's own copywrite. A simple copy, or a tracing, of the original are not new art work, but violations of the CopyWrite.

I can see where someone with a great picture of Half Dome in Yosemite, Ansel Adams for instance, could call for copywrite protection every time a similar picture of Half Dome was published, if his copywrite were still in force.

Now, back to my drawing of Jeans Zephyr, which where copywrited at the time of creation, it's highly likely that there are enough changes to the art work, that if I wanted to I could market the drawings without infringing on Jeans CopyWrite.

Basically what the CopyWrite does is protect, in this case Jean, and whomever he sold the plans to for publication, from having someone make copies of his work, as published, or originally drawn,  and selling them without permission, if indeed his CopyWrite was grandfathered when the change occurred.

I'm not bringing this up for any other reason than to clarify what I understand to be the current state of affairs as far as CopyWrite's go. I certainly respect you, and all who have created our cherished designs over the years.  Also, I have to say that all the above is from memory of a 10 year old search and study of the subject, so I may have some errors due to faulty memory, for which I apologise in advance.

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2008, 12:07:34 PM »
John,
this is NOT a pointed comment to you, it is ONLY MY OPINION and as such carries ,, well franklly little weight but to me . As an Artistic sort, I have done paintings and photography, drawn a few plans, designed a couple this and thats. I have had my creations basterdized by both ill willed and good willed persons. I think My perspective is slightly scewed. IMHO I think that regardless of meeting the letter of the law , there is a certain respect due the designers of our model masterpeices that should be honored. So that being said, what do I mean, well even though copywrite law maybe honored, its still a valid and correct morally to pursue permission from the designer or heirs.
Like I said, John this is in NO way an implication nor pointed at you, its simply my take. Each person has to live within their own set of morals and ethics and that is the way it is.

For example, I showed you the plans for my world beater biplane last year, legally there is no copywrite in place on those drawings as they were created prior to the changes (as I understand it) However, I being of similar mind to you, would expect that I wont ever see a plane come from your computer that resembles my design without having heard from you first. Does that make more sense?
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Online John Miller

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2008, 11:42:28 AM »
BOB, Mark, and Ty,

Please don'r misinterpret me here. My post was to clarify the state of CopyWrite laws, as I understand them.

I agree in principle with Bob, and Mark.

In the specific case cited, My Cad drawing of Jean Pailet's Zephyr, There are many chqnges to the design elements. Making it a take apart design required a lot of different techniques. Still, it is called a Zephyr, as the outlines are the same, and Jean is credited as the designer. I'm credited for the CAD work, and the modifications.

In this specific case, would I morally be required to recieve Jean's permission, to make a drawing showing the changes I made to make the plane a take apart?.

I believe it's exactly for this type of improvement or changes, that the Copy Write laws were changed.

In any case, Bob, Mark, and Ty are good friends of mine, and nothing in my posts was meant to cause any ill feelings between us. I sincerely hope that is not the case.

I'm as concerned as any about the rules and laws. I'm just pointing out that in some cases, there is room, under the rules and laws, for new drawings of old subjects without infringing on the CopyWrites.  H^^
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 02:37:50 PM by John Miller »
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2008, 12:00:09 PM »
Ty,
I am sorry we took over your thread, However I really feel this was a constructive discussion. John, and I both do cad work, and Bob is in the mode of desiring to reissue some drawings too. I think this was a pretty informative discussion. I am sorry if we offended you by hijacking your thread however. Perhaps we might have served your interests better by carrying this conversation in a different thread?
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2008, 03:14:48 PM »
Hi Ty:

I'm in total agreement with both Mark and John; this was a productive thread. Isn't this what a forum is supposed to be about? We were civil and yet spoke our minds on a subject about which we are passionate. All of us had good points to make, I think, and I also think we gave others something to consider.

If there are rules that govern where a thread may wander, then count me gone once again from forum life. I have strong personal feelings on these subjects, and will voice them whenever the opportunity arises. If, however, I'm centured for speaking my piece honsestly and clearly, then I'll go back into seclusion where I can think what I want. This has happened before...

On a strictly personal note, I want to thank you for posting those great photos. It brought back a wonderful time in my life if only for a brief time.

Bob Hunt 

Offline Bill Little

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2008, 05:07:58 PM »
Topics often wander, and as long as they are productive, I see no problem.  Others may feel differently, but then that's everyone's right.

I understand the desire to keep things *above board*, and this was a place to express those feelings, by others, through a natural progression.  A palne was ID'ed, it was discussed, mention of available plans, etc., and if it had NOT occurred, then maybe some interest in building a unique Classic plane would not have taken place.  Or at least not mentioned.
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2008, 12:19:54 PM »
Does anyone know about any of those other airplanes in the photos?
(Mark Hughes has had a Talon on the board, for a long time. I hope he finishes it some time soon, I really like that model.)
Thanks for the pictures, Ty.
At least your stuff gets things going!
Chris...

Offline Bill Little

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2008, 12:25:21 PM »
Does anyone know about any of those other airplanes in the photos?
(Mark Hughes has had a Talon on the board, for a long time. I hope he finishes it some time soon, I really like that model.)
Thanks for the pictures, Ty.
At least your stuff gets things going!
Chris...

I agree.  Ty's post got a LOT going, and it was all positive. y1

Because of it, we just might get updated plans for a couple planes.  Looking back, IMHO, that is more important in the long run *scheme of things* than a few old geezers (which I apparently AM one! LOL!!)  going orgasmic about how great it was back then.  I was around back then, and I STILL have mixed emotions about how great it was! LOL!!  (no offense to any one)
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2008, 08:36:50 AM »
I can tell you they fly better now, because we know more now.
That big green trike gear model looks very familiar, and I know I know it. Just can't think of it right now.
Chris..

WE know more, and we have better engines! That last part REALLY makes a difference!

And thanks again for the pictures Ty.  Sorry the thread was hijacked................
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2008, 11:33:15 AM »
HI Chris. I believe lthat is an I beamer and may be a plans built version of the "Detroiter" with the trike gear. I forget the name just now. (Challenger?). A McDonald design? H^^

Hi Ty,

I think you hit that one on the nose.  There was a Challenger trike gear (Strathmoore/Detroiter) I-Beamer.......
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Offline Dick Byron

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2008, 07:58:06 AM »
My only recollection of New Bedford is 1959 at the airport. Only contest I went to there. Joined the Army in July 59.

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2008, 10:37:34 AM »
Yeah, Gary, and boy did they ever look cool! It's interesting to me that in that timeframe there were those who hated the idea of using a muffler. Now everybody uses them (We're talking stunt here...) and they love them. But, it is some of those same people who are against electric power because it doesn't make any noise! Go figure...

The noise thing I can almost understand (almost). It's the other argument that with electric power there is no smell that really makes me laugh. That's the part my wife likes best!

Bob


Of course Bob, with electric just getting started in stunt, we haven't had the opportunity to put many into the turf or macadam---at least in front of spectators at a contest.

Once that happens and the lipo bursts open and into flames, then we will have the smell!

Offline Shultzie

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2008, 10:58:19 AM »
GADS!
That little yellow  Ukie "gyro-copter" (if that is the right name?) I had the pleasure of working with one amazingly gifted  Boeing model builder who other hobby was building and flying full scale ultra light gyro-copters.
He was in the process of building a control line version and I was going to be his "test pilot" on this project.
Sadly......all this came to an sudden and sad ending one weekend...during one of his test flights when one of the rotors blew apart........and Phil Taylor lost his life that day.

Small solace and comfort, knowing that Phil died doing---"WHAT HE LOVED TO DO!"
(I have always detested...that saying? :-[  )

I never did get a chance to finish that gyro that CL Gyro....or get to fly it, so with that in mind.
I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW HOW THAT WHIRRRLEEE BIRDEEE' flew? H^^
Don Shultz

Offline Shultzie

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2008, 11:49:01 AM »
Interesting concept...but when watching my departed friend fly his own ultra-light before his fatal flight.
Phil always looked like he was having his HANDS FULL when flying that deadly homebuilt of his.

 :X :-[
Don Shultz

Offline Arch Adamisin

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Re: More from New Bedford Invaders meet in 67
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2008, 10:49:15 AM »
The Talon pictured is a Kostecky design, it's just not one of Jims personal models. That one was built by someone else.

     Arch


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