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Classic Designs => Classic Planes => Topic started by: Dave_Trible on December 05, 2013, 05:38:34 AM
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Son in law Kevin picked up a Midwest ME 109 kit and I can't remember just when it came out. Wondering if anyone knows if this is classic legal. I know it's close.
Dave
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I remember Bob Kilby flying one back in 1975 when I first started flying, if that helps.
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Thanks Ty. It will then be a profile class ship for him. I remember an old club member who had one and it was very impressive. He's putting a Mac .35 on it.
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Yes, the series came out in the 70's. I had the P-39 and it was a terrific plane for me at the time. The tail did wobble a lot when the engine was running on the ground. Like I said, not knowing any better it got me thru the pattern a lot better than some of the other planes I have built since then. By the way, had a McCoy .40 Redhead that was box stock.
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Think I remember that one John. I was thinking of Vince Bernard's 109. Had a really tired old Fox .35 on it and flew soooooo slow. Turn it up for a wing over and you thought it stopped. It just chugged right on over and stayed tight on the lines. Truth be told I got the kit on eBay and thought to build it to test all the .29-.35s I have. Kevin wanted it. Still need to find or draw up something for that job sometime.
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Yes I remember the shortage. Some were getting the yellow balsa from New Guinea (sp). Pine started to look good.
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I do know that Randy Smith has both the ME109 and the P-63 plans (Flying Models) listed as Classic legal. In the mid eighties I called Midwest and asked about the P-40 kit to see if it was classic legal, they said it was....but really had my doubts even back then. So......when was the P-40 (48") version plans designed and dated? :o Richard
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Guess I don't remember a P-40. All I can think of is a P-51, the 109 and a P-39 I think. The P-40 had to be after that. When I find the time I'll dig out my stacks of old magazines and see what ads I find.
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Guess I don't remember a P-40. All I can think of is a P-51, the 109 and a P-39 I think. The P-40 had to be after that. When I find the time I'll dig out my stacks of old magazines and see what ads I find.
They did make a P-40 but I had a Larry Richards reproduction of that kit and it was light years ahead of the Midwest offering. Perhaps the rarest of them is the Skyraider as it came out last and had the shortest production run. It was also never offered as a 15 size made by Midwest. Larry made one and I believe that he said that he sold about nine of them. I count my self among the lucky ones.
Dennis
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Well I understand that. I AM attached to that Spitfire and will duplicate it. Another quandry tho. I am also fond of the Veco Hurricane. When I saw Brodak had a kit I jumped to buy it. Then I just found and bought an original Veco kit. Now I'm not sure which to build- maybe both with different engines but shall I build the original kit or duplicate it? Not going to build 10 copies of it. Save it for.......? A landfill one day after my departure?
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Dave, I'm in the middle of a Veco Hurricane build; was with Mark Gerber at Brodak's last year, his flies great! Really cool looking ship, he did an excellent paint scheme on his. If you do the Brodak kit, it needs dihedral, according to the Veco plans...
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The one I built as a teen I laid flat and didn't do the differential flaps but one or both of these I'll probably go dihedral. Doubtful on differential. Mine had a McCoy .35. I have a new Veco .35 for one of the new ones and either a new Stallion or Enya for the other should I think I want one muffled. These are the coolest machines. My bench is deep now but maybe in the coming year.....
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That profile Midwest "P-39" was actually a P-63. Midwest offered the P-51, Bf(ME)-109, P-63, and AD Skyraider.
I don't remember a P-40, either....although Carl Goldberg (CG Models) offered a 43" profile version.
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Midwest did do a 36" P-40, but I don't think they ever did that one in 48".
I think Larry Richards may have enlarged the design and offered it in 48", along with his 36" repro.
On the Midwest 'Cobra's, I think the 36" kit had the P-39 fin/rudder outline and I know the 48" kit had the P-63 outline, and was actually called a P-63 I believe.
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. . . I know the 48" kit had the P-63 outline, and was actually called a P-63 I believe.
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Definitely!
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I have an excuse for the lapse of memory. I'm getting old. Yes it was the P-63. Still have the plans.
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The Midwest "big" model line up was the P-51, P-40, P-63, ME-109, AD/Skyraider, and the Magician. I have them all and built and flew a P-40 when just out of high school. I think they did"small" versions of everything but the Skyraider, and I believe I have those also. All Vince Machia (spelling?) designs. Vince had the Italian warbird (which name escapes me right now) and a Tony published in Flying Models that were simialr to these in construction. I don't think any are classic legal, but should be Nostalgia 30 eligible. They all had sorta thin airfoils, so if built according to plan, keep it light. Some of you guys in my area may remember my "Mister Schmidt" ME-109 profile that I flew in beginner/intermediate many years ago. It was a Chipmunk wing and I used a Midwest ME-109 fuse out line that I adjusted as necessary to accommodate the thicker wing, and used Cipmunk moments on it, and used a Rabe style nose. It flew pretty well and is still flying in the hands of Bob Arata while he gets some new stuff built. I like all the Midwest stuff and while they might not be classic competition legal, they are still "Classic" in my book.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I think the P-63, P-51 and Me-109 were in an magazine 3 in 1 article in one of the top three American magazines. I used to know the facts but have forgotten them. Anyway, that's why Mike let me fly the P-63 in VSC 1 and 2.
I thought we checked that stuff together at one time, Dan-O.
Chris...
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I think the P-63, P-51 and Me-109 were in an magazine 3 in 1 article in one of the top three American magazines. I used to know the facts but have forgotten them. Anyway, that's why Mike let me fly the P-63 in VSC 1 and 2.
I thought we checked that stuff together at one time, Dan-O.
Chris...
HEY MAN! Yeah, I remembered that, and that is part of what I based my answer on. Seems like it was only yesterday! Is the P-63 still around? I still want to build another P-40. That was the only one I did back in the day. I just never saw the others at the hobby shop, and the only time I ever say the Skyraider was when I got the kit I have now. So many airplanes and so little time!
Cold here is St. Louis tonight, getting down to 5 degrees!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I thought that the accepted belief was that the first three Midwest .35 sized warbirds were Classic Legal based on the magazine publication. I too have forgotten the details. That would be the P-63, ME-109, and P-51. Have flown all three, built the ME-109. Remember it as a good flier. 8)
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So I wonder if the question is still on the table? Does anyone oversee an 'official' list? Inquiring minds want to know. Ty, is that you?
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Issue resolved. Thanks Ty.
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Vince Micchia had four designs in the Classic era that I found in Tom Morris' book, all published in Flying Models Magazine. The first was the Mag Jet, in Oct. 1967, then the Boomer in April '68, then the King Cobra profile in May '69, and followed by the ME-109 profile in June '69. The Cobra and the ME-109 are a little different from the Midwest kits, just looking at them at a glance. It's interesting to note that neither the kit nor the mag plan has the correct fin/rudder shape for a King Cobra. Chris McMillin got a special dispensation from Mike Keville to fly the Midwest P-63 at the first two VSC contests just to help the entry numbers! I don't know the complete history of Midwest, but a company by that name did produce the Gollywock, Jabberwock and Dynamoe free flight rubber kits before the Classic C/L model era, and the Gollywock is eligible for Old Time Rubber, I believe. I can't remember the cut-off date, but remember trying to verify that by finding an add in Air Trails magazine. The Midwest kit of the Magician came after Jim Silhavey kitted it himself, I have an example of that kit. I would be interested in reading about the complete history of Midwest, if anyone knows where that could be found.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I was living, and flying as a both a Junior, and Senior, from about 1952 through 1962, when I went into the Navy. I don't recall the Midwest warbird series during that time frame, I do recall the Magician, as one of my club mates had one around 1960. We were all fascinated with the stab location, being what appeared to be too close to the wing. It flew well, and we were aware that it was designed by a Nat's winner.
The Panther, and The other one whose name escapes me right now, were Hi Johnston designs and are classic legal.
A number of designs from this time frame were bought and sold when a kit manufacturer would shutdown. Look at the Ambroid designs for an example. This resulted in several different design kit sources over time.
Having Nos30 class really opens up the choices, and with even VSC allowing completion with many more designs from the designs of our youth.
Thanks to Ty, for helping us shine the light on these designs.
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The original, early '50s, Kenhi designs (Wildcat, Bobcat, Panther, Cougar) were - in my opinion - FAR more attractive than the later versions, especially the re-designed "skinny wing" Cougar.
If you'd like to see a stunning example of a first edition Cougar, come to VSC-26 and see Joe Dill's magnificent model.
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Issue resolved. Thanks Ty.
No not really, many of the Midwest kits were "designed" before the Dec cutoff date, so there are many Midwest models that ARE Classic legal.
From the rules:
The purpose of the event is to encourage the construction and flying of control
line stunt models designed, published, or kitted prior to December 31, 1969. Any design may be
entered, provided the contestant has convincing evidence of the designs’ compliance. Challenged
contestants may show dated published plans, magazine construction article, dated photographs and/or
letters of confirmation of the date of the design.
Randy
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If you'd like to see a stunning example of a first edition Cougar, come to VSC-26 and see Joe Dill's magnificent model.
Is Joe's the one with the military paint scheme (Canadian if I remember correctly?) with invasion stripes etc?
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The Midwest "big" model line up was the P-51, P-40, P-63, ME-109, AD/Skyraider, and the Magician. I have them all and built and flew a P-40 when just out of high school.
Are you sure on the P-40 Dan? Did Midwest really do a 48" P-40?
I know they did it in 36", but I've never seen or heard of one from Midwest in 48".
Just wondering...
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To the best of my memory (which isn't much these days), Midwest never offered a 48" P-40. Their 48" profiles were the ME-109, P-63, P-51 and AD Skyraider.
Thoughts of a P-40 may be in reference to the Carl Goldberg P-40, which had a wingspan of 43".
I will of course accept opinions to the contrary.
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Guys, I'm pretty sure there was a "big" P-40...Tom Dixon has the plans.
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Yes, there was a large 48" P-40. I built two of them in the mid seventies. The P-40 in the attached photo was finished in silkspan and painted with Perfect paints. Flown with a Fox .35, a G-21 ST, and a Fox Combat Special. Richard
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Hi Randy. Do you know who designed those War Bird kits for Midwest? I know several similar models show up in mid 60's MAN and FM and AAM. H^^
uhhhh ..Vince Micchia :-)
I built and flew all of these back decades ago, I also had teh P-40 which some say didn't exist, my favs were the P-63 and the ME 109, they were really good flying profiles if you kept them light and straight
I would like to find the plans that were in the mags
Randy
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Yes, there was a large 48" P-40. I built two of them in the mid seventies. The P-40 in the attached photo was finished in silkspan and painted with Perfect paints. Flown with a Fox .35, a G-21 ST, and a Fox Combat Special. Richard
Cool, never knew of that one. Thanks for the photo too Richard. You see and/or hear about the other 48" Midwest 'birds from time to time, the P-40 must have been the rarest of the series.
Interesting stuff. D>K
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I too had a Midwest P-40 kit. Brought it back from Korea in the 70's. Sold it...my mistake. 8)
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Are you sure on the P-40 Dan? Did Midwest really do a 48" P-40?
I know they did it in 36", but I've never seen or heard of one from Midwest in 48".
Just wondering...
Hi wayne;
Yes I'm sure!! I'm glad someone posted a picture. It was pretty neat looking. The P-40 is one of my favorite aiprlanes. I have the Midwest kit, and the guy that went by the name richardskits out of the Carolinas reproduced the P-40 and a couple of the others. Someone mentioned that the Skyraider was least know because fewer of those were produced and I think that is correct. I have also heard that it was the best flying model of the bunch. I never saw one until a ripe opportunity to buy one presented itself. I hope to copy the kit someday. So many airplanes and so little time!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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If someone would post a photo of a Midwest ad showing a 48" P-40 I would stand corrected. As far as I recall, their 48" profile kits were only the ME-109, P-51, P-63 and AD Skyraider.
As stated earlier, CG Models (Carl Goldberg) produced a profile 43" P-40, but I do not recall any 48" P-40 from Midwest.
Again, if someone will post a photo of a Midwest ad with that design (or any other proof) I'd appreciate it - and would then shut up about this.
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If someone would post a photo of a Midwest ad showing a 48" P-40 I would stand corrected. As far as I recall, their 48" profile kits were only the ME-109, P-51, P-63 and AD Skyraider.
As stated earlier, CG Models (Carl Goldberg) produced a profile 43" P-40, but I do not recall any 48" P-40 from Midwest.
Again, if someone will post a photo of a Midwest ad with that design (or any other proof) I'd appreciate it - and would then shut up about this.
Hey Uncle Mikey;
When I get home tonight, I'll dig out the kit, might be able to lay my hands on the Larry Richard's replica kit also (Remembered his name this time!!! H^^ I'll take a photo and email it to you and you can post it for me. I'm lucky enough with the computer to be able to send it to you, but haven't had any practice with posting pics yet. I also have the Goldberg kit, but that one will be harder to get to!
Stya tuned for further developmenets! Film at eleven!! H^^
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Replica kits don't count. I want to see an original Midwest 48" P-40....if in fact it ever existed.
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P.S. = I know Midwest had a 33" span (.19 size) P-40. I once built one. My question is, did they have a 48" version?
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Hey Ty;
I've got both of those books, volumes 1 and 2. Mine done't have the best print jobs on them, and the info block on some of the plans is pretty much unreadable. But, cool none the less.
Don't worry mike, the photo will be of the real deal! I still have the plans from the kit I built right out of high school, also. If there are adds for the whole line, I'm bettin' that they will be in '72,'73, or '74 American Aircraft Modeler. I have all of those and can check pretty easy.
When I started to take stunt sorta seriously, I kit bashed a ME-109 using the fuse of the Midwest kit and a SIG Chipmunk wing, and stretched the moments out to match the Chipmunk. I put a Rabe style nose on it also and powered it with a Randy Smith Magnum.40. I put a white Russian Front winter camo paint job on it that I stole the idea of from somewhere, and I nick named it Mr. Schmidt! The model is still being used by Bob Arata and still has the Magnum .40 in it! It got me through Intermediate and into Advanced. I'll have to build another someday, but with a stab that is just a bit bigger, and a more blunt leading edge than what I did on the original.
The P-40 would be a bit better if kit bashed with a SIG Banshee wing. A bit thicker airfoil, and it already has the rounded tips. Been thinking about that for a ling time also.
Stay tuned!
Dan McEntee
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The only proof I have so far is an add from America's Hobbies in the Dec 1976 Flying Models magazine. Under UC Models it list the Midwest .15 and .35 size ME 109, Mustang, Warhawk,and King Cobra. Hope this helps. Richard
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There it is Mike, top of the AHC ad, second column from the left. In reply #36 Richard posted a pic of his older 48" model too.
I always wanted that Jack Stafford Liberator in those ads... :)
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...plans for one on Ebay right now.
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In an issue compiled by Frank Ehling, Vol. One, called Kit Plan Book, on page 34 is a plan for the Midwest "P-40 Warhawk". It is for .35 engines, sport and profile stunt. Below it is the P-63. It is shown in Flying Tigers paint scheme, number 77 on the side, just like the above photo. I have yet to find any ads with this kit, but it obviously existed.
It is again shown on page 68, but in a different paint scheme; Number 12, flying tigers with the flyhing Tiger on the fuselage under the canopy. It is listed as "sport and combat" and has a thinner wing than the first one listed.
So Midwest put out three P-40 kits. .35 stunt,.049 and .35 trainer/combat, each different. H^^
This kit is listed on the plans as kit #244. The P-63 is lit 243. D>K
The plans book was printed in 1973 and has an AMA application form on the inside back cover for the year 1974.
Hey Ty;
I just sent off the pics of my kit to Mike and hopefully he'll post them. I just checked my copy of the AMA Kit Plan Book, and the Midwest P-40 plan on page 68 is of the 33" .15 size model. An interesting thing to note is that, like you mentioned, it has the number 12 shown on the fuselage on the plan. When you see the box art for the 48" kit, it has the number 12 in the illustration, but as we it has the number 77 on the decals and the plan! It don't mean nothin' just a curiosity!
I just love looking through that plan book!! y1 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!
Dan McEntee
Dan McEntee
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Gentlemen, I stand corrected. Thanks to your research (and two photos of box art e-mailed by Dan McEntee) it does appear that Midwest kitted a 48" profile P-40.
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Gentlemen, I stand corrected. Thanks to your research (and two photos of box art e-mailed by Dan McEntee) it does appear that Midwest kitted a 48" profile P-40.
Yep as I stated early in the thread I used to have most of them, and flew the 35 40 size P-40 , back in the 70s
Randy
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Hi Dan,
No, the VSC P-63 King Cobra is long gone. Michael was flying it at a young age and we were flying Stunt at a contest at Whittier Narrows. He picked the handle upside down and when it wouldn't take off he gave it down, it flew, and then he gave it up, it went straight in!
Chris...
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I have the kit plans for the Midwest 48" series stunters. Since the wing is constant chord, you can build from these plans. I have thought about it many times, but too many projects already............ Plus, I think Don Hutchinson's plans would build a better looking, better flying, model.
BIG Bear
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Hi Bill,
The P-63, P-51 and Me-109 all have swept leading edges. I never had the others, they may be constant chord.
Chris...
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The Skyraider has swept wings also. I have the plans.
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Hi Bill,
The P-63, P-51 and Me-109 all have swept leading edges. I never had the others, they may be constant chord.
Chris...
mea culpa, Chris. I don't have a clue why I said that. The P-40 is the only one with a "constant chord". From appearances all the others might have used the same wing with different wing tips, but I am not sure.
BIG Bear
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mea culpa, Chris. I don't have a clue why I said that. The P-40 is the only one with a "constant chord". From appearances all the others might have used the same wing with different wing tips, but I am not sure.
BIG Bear
The P-40 doesn't have constant chord either ...... :-)
Randy
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The P-40 doesn't have constant chord either ...... :-)
Randy
Well, it fooled me, Randy. Looks like a straight LE, TE and tapered flaps. ??? Haven't had those plans out in a long time.
I built the Skyraider, P-63, Me 109. Scratch built the P-51. All did have a swept LE.
Bill
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Well, it fooled me, Randy. Looks like a straight LE, TE and tapered flaps. ??? Haven't had those plans out in a long time.
I built the Skyraider, P-63, Me 109. Scratch built the P-51. All did have a swept LE.
Bill
Well the ones I built and flew , the wing root was wider than the wing at the outer edge... and the rear of the wing was tapered... But I was poking at you, I know what you are meaning, that the ribs are the same size all the way to the tips.
Randy
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I have one of the 48" Midwest p 40 planes downstairs. It is kit no.244 according to the label on the box. I have had two of the p 63's one was modified with a nobler wing, it still is around, the other was not so lucky. They flew quite well. George
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I have one of the 48" Midwest p 40 planes downstairs. It is kit no.244 according to the label on the box. I have had two of the p 63's one was modified with a nobler wing, it still is around, the other was not so lucky. They flew quite well. George
Hi George,
I am very interested in the P-63 with the Nobler wing. That is what Mike Garmon did on the first series of Brodak Warbirds, only he shortened the wing slightly. Did you mainly just have to make the hole in the fuselage fit the Nobler wing? I think it would make the flyability much better!
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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Bill I did make the hole bigger and also made the stab and elevators the same span as the nobler tail. You didn't know the tail was longer unless you measured it ass it was only about 2" irrc. George
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Bill I did make the hole bigger and also made the stab and elevators the same span as the nobler tail. You didn't know the tail was longer unless you measured it ass it was only about 2" irrc. George
Thanks, George. I have three sets of Brodak Warbird ribs and would like to use one set in a P-63. I need a tricycle gear model! The last one I had was a stock Midwest P-63 back around 1972..............
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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The P-40 doesn't have constant chord either ...... :-)
Randy
Check out the proof on the bay. Item numbers 161262604884 and 161262565837.
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Check out the proof on the bay. Item numbers 161262604884 and 161262565837.
The tips and flaps are part of the wing, if you measure the root and tip, it is NOT a constant chord... and if you read my post ,I was just being technical to poke and joke with Bill. It wasn't meant to be any serious argument.. so I don't know what the point of your post is, If your trying to say the internal ribs are the same size, then say that.
I don't need to look at Ebay as I have the kits and plans at home , I am aware of what the kits are., I built many of them
Randy
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Randy was just busting my chops and he made me chuckle. He caught me writing without thinking. ;D In the Midwest 48" P-40 wing, the ribs are all the same length, AFAIK.
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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I like the Buster bash idea. I'm looking at a modified one right now and comparing to plan, Wing tip is almost dead on, Buster flaps need more taper to match P-40- easy, stab / wing positions are close, add some blocks to make the chin cowl and turtle deck, reshape the rudder elevator and once the Camo and Shark mouth, Flying Tiger,etc. May not be rule legal - but probably flys good...and would look good too!
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...plans for one on Ebay right now.
Why spend the money when its available for free?
The 33" Span..
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=7127
The 48" span..
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=7263
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My Midwest P40 is here. OS La 46 was overkill. Spent alot of time restoring the original decals as they were faded. I posted them in the build somewhere. Its odd that so many people dont know about the Midwest P40. Its the nicest looking plane of the bunch!
Kevin.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/cfc-graphics/midwest-p-40-warhawk-build/
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It certainly looks nice. During the time these were popular, only three of these ever showed up in hobby shops or at the field in my area. The ME, P-51 and P-63. I never knew of any others until long after production stopped. I guess there may have been six or seven different ones. The only one I had direct experience with was the ME 109. It was awesome on a tired Fox .35. They are just a bit too new to be classic however. Great for profile and nostalgia 30.
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It certainly looks nice. During the time these were popular, only three of these ever showed up in hobby shops or at the field in my area. The ME, P-51 and P-63. I never knew of any others until long after production stopped. I guess there may have been six or seven different ones. The only one I had direct experience with was the ME 109. It was awesome on a tired Fox .35. They are just a bit too new to be classic however. Great for profile and nostalgia 30.
Just going from memory, there was the P-40, P-51, Skyraider, P-63, and the ME-109 in the .35 size Midwest Warbird Series. I think all but the Skyraider were made in a .15 size also. Some consider the Magician in both sizes part of the series also. The designer, Vince Maccia, also published some war bird profile .35 size models such as the Kawasaki Tony, and a few others that were Classic legal because they were published before the deadline. They have a bit better airfoil also because you didn't need to worry about the ribs fitting on as small a sheet of balsa as possible!! It would be cool to have an "All Vince Maccia) profile contest!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee