I've heard it said, and I think actually seen it done, that you can build a full-body classic model as a profile and use it in Classic Stunt.

However, when I  looked up in the PAMPA Reference Guide, I didn't see any such concession.

What's the party line on this?

This would not be considered legal UNLESS you can have the original designer confirm that there were profile versions of the airplane built during the Classic Era.

Dee Rice has confirmed that there were many "Profile Orientals" built during that time frame

Jim Young has also confirmed that there were "Profile Roadrunners" in that time frame.

This is obviously a case by case subject.

For example, if I were to make a profile kit version of the "JD Falcon". It could NEVER be called Classic Legal... but there was a much smaller profile "Jr. Falcon" with which Ed Elasick won the 1961 Air Youth Championhsip. It was published as the "Topper".. that Fox .25 powered airplane is Classic legal.

I am not really in disagreement with you on this, but I have a concern.  I built a Nobler Profile, in 1965, from a wing and tail left over from my Green Box Nobler (broken line).

Many of us rebuilt crashed planes this way when we were younger and you can claim you did this if you wish.

I agree with most when I say that just taking any old classic and building it as a profile would not be within the spirit of the rules. But in reality, there aren't many contests that would exclude you if you did this. Most of us are simply too honest to violate this unwritten rule, which is one reason the event is so popular.

I competed against a profile Cardinal in New Jersey a few years ago. It didn't dawn on me until I was halfway home that the Cardinal is not a classic legal design.

Ron

Thank you for casting the first stone vis-a-vis the Profile Cardinal.  I still seem to recall having heard (but not seen writing) the "you can profile anything" line.

Actually, the profile Cardinal is the best flying profile I've ever seen and I consider it to be the Gold Standard. But it's simply not a classic legal design, full fuselage or profile. My remarks were aimed at the Classic Stunt event.

Ron

So, what's the problem?  We all know (at least those of us who can read) that there is nowhere written anything pertaining to the subject of "Profiling a Full Fuselage Classic plane".  And we also know that no competitive advantage can be gained from doing so.

Bill, I wouldn't even think of arguing over this issue. I believe that the "spirit of the rules" is to have fun. It's true that many have made a profile out of a salvaged wing back in the days. Fact is, some of the early Pathfinders, then known as (something) chickens, are almost classic legal. When and if the builder can provide good, acceptable documentation, then all the appearance points, and FIDELITY points can be awarded.

Appearance points, if used, relate only to the construction and finish of the plane. You show up with a "Profile version" of a classic, without the documentation, I can almost guarantee you'll get to fly, but, IF, appearance points are being given out, you might take a small hit. You definately won't get fidelity points IF they are awarding them.

Yep.. that is why only reasonable proof is needed. A picture of one built like that is all you need. Remember that in the Classic era you were required to have some originality by the rules. Whether it be a wing gear in a Nobler, or a modified something. or completely new, you had varing degress of originality.

Just remember that the originality requirement is a major reason for the fast developement of stunters, and be thankful for all the designs we now have as a result.

But.. Have fun!

And what about all the Profile Cavaliers, and Lieutenants that have flown?

Ward

Since most of us are doing this for fun and there is very little prize money involved, we let our conscience be our guide. If you have any doubts, call the CD and explain your situation before the contest.

Fortunately, I don't know anyone in the "Win at all costs" category. Control Line model aviation is a very small pond these days. There's not much to be gained by being the big frog. The folks at my LHS are far more impressed with my 3D helicopter skills than my CLPA trophies. 

Ron

Never seen "win at any cost?"

It's in every event in modeling, from giant scale turbo-jet RC all the way down to hand launched gliders.

A Nelson 36 with a left hand crank in Profile Carrier? 
A $700 piped stunt engine in lieu a $100 engine? Or better yet, $1,500 worth of electrics.

Prizes? What prizes? It's all about the honor of winning.  Nobody's in it for profit. 

 
I'm perfectly willing to concede the FAI program and the top gun events to those who want to throw money the fire.  I'll stand back and watch.
It would be nice if we could save an event or two from the big spenders, but it's an uphill battle.

Never seen "win at any cost?"

It's in every event in modeling, from giant scale turbo-jet RC all the way down to hand launched gliders.

A Nelson 36 with a left hand crank in Profile Carrier? 
A $700 piped stunt engine in lieu a $100 engine? Or better yet, $1,500 worth of electrics.

Prizes? What prizes? It's all about the honor of winning.  Nobody's in it for profit. 
 
I'm perfectly willing to concede the FAI program and the top gun events to those who want to throw money the fire.  I'll stand back and watch.
It would be nice if we could save an event or two from the big spenders, but it's an uphill battle.

Whoa, Paul.

Maybe I'd better defend myself then. I do not consider myself a "Win at all costs" competitor, but I do own and use $400 piped stunt engines. Why? Because they run better and I got sick and tired of trying to make a crappy OS RC engine into a control line stunt engine. Not because I was trying to win at all costs.

And yes, I also invested a lot of time, money, and effort into an electric control line stunter last year. Unfortunately, that was a LOT more than $1500 (try $4500) - but that alone did not make me a better pilot, nor did it make me a win at all costs competitor.

I think we are getting a little off track here. Your original question was about taking a regular full bodied Classic design, converting it to a profile, and entering in competition. I feel we have answered that question very well.

I don't know if anyone can answer your question about money. If there is a better stunt engine out there, most of us will want to use it and that has NOTHING to do with win at all costs. That's called spending your money wisely.

I stand by my original statement: I still cannot think of any win at all cost control line stunt pilots. I can think of a lot of guys who have invested years of time, effort, and money into making themselves into better pilots and better competitors. A case of Sig Champion stunt fuel will run you $100.00+ no matter what engine or plane you plan to fly. If you want to keep up, plan on burning a few cases each year.

Ron

Hi Tom,

I will ask John next time I see him (he should be at Huntersville) but, IIRC, he has said he made a Profile Cavalier.  I am not 100% certain, so I will ask!

Bill <><

Ty, 

Please scan and post that picture from 1962!

One of our group over in Pullman, WA, had a profile rebuild of a Berkley P-40 Warhawk Stunter in '59. He was a Sophmore, and arrived from Panama. His father was US Army, an officer in the ROTC detachment at WSC. The plane was Curtiss Blue (ewwwww) and had a McCoy .29 super Stunt. So, there's one more "Classic legal Profile" for you.  Steve