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Author Topic: Help make me legal  (Read 1750 times)

Online Ken Culbertson

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Help make me legal
« on: March 15, 2018, 08:06:08 PM »
I am currently building a plane I designed in 1963 and competed in Senior at numerous contests through 1967, (including the 1964 Nats) until it was either lost or stolen when I was sent on an all expense paid vacation to Southeast Asia.  The only way I may be able to use it in Classic is if I can come up with a picture.  We didn't have cell phone camera's in the 60'!  If there is anybody out there that has some pictures from the 1964 Nats in Dallas that might show a big for it's day red and white twin tailed beast that looked like the offspring of a Cardinal and an oversized Olympic, please let me know.

Thanks
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 12:35:18 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 12:09:34 PM »
The NATS in Dallas was 1964 at Grand Prairie Naval Air Station.  I know as it was my first one.  What an experience for a young farm kid relocated to the city.   Was my first time in Texas also. D>K
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 12:37:33 PM »
The NATS in Dallas was 1964 at Grand Prairie Naval Air Station.  I know as it was my first one.  What an experience for a young farm kid relocated to the city.   Was my first time in Texas also. D>K

I said it was Senior Stunt when I meant Senior Moment!  You are 100% right.  I had it 1964 until someone told me it was 65 and I believed them.  Thanks for the correction.  I fixed the post.

Ken
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 01:42:34 PM »
Kitted or published is the criteria.  Just get some old magazines and find the proof. 

People have bullied their way into OTS and Classic with personal assertion, but you're better off actually being legal.
If the judges look at you funny, they are likely to score you funny.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 02:22:39 PM »
Kitted or published is the criteria.  Just get some old magazines and find the proof. 

People have bullied their way into OTS and Classic with personal assertion, but you're better off actually being legal.
If the judges look at you funny, they are likely to score you funny.

I was hoping that "published" didn't require it to be a magazine.  I don't want to "bully" my way into anything so I guess I will just have to skip that event.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 07:44:36 PM »
I was hoping that "published" didn't require it to be a magazine.  I don't want to "bully" my way into anything so I guess I will just have to skip that event.

   All you need is proof that it existed. Do you have the original plan? Ask any relatives if they have any pictures with dates. In this day and age of computers and social media, put the word out that way and see what shows up. Keep working at it while building the model.
   Type at you later,
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Offline peabody

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 06:21:32 AM »
Yup....Dan's right. "kitted or Published" doesn't even apply to OTS.
Classic rules are pretty vague.... I think that if you recreate to the best of your recollection, the plane that you flew, it would qualify.

Have fun!

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 06:08:37 PM »
Okay, I actually submitted the rule proposal that was voted on and accepted for Classic legality.

Here's what it says: The model must have been designed, built, or flown before midnight December 31, 1969. That means if the model was designed just prior to midnight on December 31, 1969 it is still legal.

Now the rest of the story: My proposal actually read: Designed, built, and flown prior to midnight on December 31, 1969. When it was sent out for a vote, someone had mis-typed it to read Designed, built, or flown prior to midnight December 31, 1969. That was the wording that was voted on and passed. Because of that a design need not have ever flown to be considered legal. That proposal also stated that that cutoff date was a permanent one for Classic.

If you designed and flew that ship at the 1964 Nats in Senior (Which was won, by the way, by Barry Simmons of New Jersey...) then it is Classic legal. You do not need to prove it any further. Your word is plenty good enough.

Bob Hunt

 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 10:46:07 AM by Bob Hunt »

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 09:37:11 PM »
  What part of the country did you live in at that time? What contests did you attend and in what cities? You never know where you may find a picture. One year at the SIG contest, an older gentleman who was a spectator struck up a conversation about airplanes and such, and that he had built a blown up Nobler for a Fox.59 in the early to mid 60's. he had the model there and showed it to me. Jim Lee happened along and he joined the conversation and said he remembered that model! When he got home, he dug up a photo of it taken at a contest in Kansas or Iowa a that time that he had taken, so proof that it had existed! Another local man drew up the model and made note of the proof and Jim sent me a scan of the photo. A photo of your model may be sitting in someone's shoe box out there! it would be neat to see, just  for the nostalgia and history sake. I hope you can find one, I would like to see it.
   HAPPY ST. PATTY"S DAY!
    Dan McEntee
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2018, 04:47:06 PM »
  What part of the country did you live in at that time? What contests did you attend and in what cities? You never know where you may find a picture. One year at the SIG contest, an older gentleman who was a spectator struck up a conversation about airplanes and such, and that he had built a blown up Nobler for a Fox.59 in the early to mid 60's. he had the model there and showed it to me. Jim Lee happened along and he joined the conversation and said he remembered that model! When he got home, he dug up a photo of it taken at a contest in Kansas or Iowa a that time that he had taken, so proof that it had existed! Another local man drew up the model and made note of the proof and Jim sent me a scan of the photo. A photo of your model may be sitting in someone's shoe box out there! it would be neat to see, just  for the nostalgia and history sake. I hope you can find one, I would like to see it.
   HAPPY ST. PATTY"S DAY!
    Dan McEntee

During that time frame I flew contests in North Texas from 1963-1965 and in Central Ohio from 65 through 67.  I can't for the life of me remember any of the names except for the Southwesterns in Dallas 63-65.  My grandfather was an avid photographer.  I am headed for the shoebox!
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2018, 04:53:19 PM »
HI Ken.  I have culled through all my magazines of the era that covered the 64 NATS and nothing of your model could be found.  FM, MAN, Aero Modeler, Model Aviation.  Generally speaking, it seems only the top three of any event get in the mags.  H^^

I can't thank you enough.  I was hoping for a "pit area" photo.  I won't give up!  Next stop. my grandfather's slide collection.

Thanks - Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2018, 05:10:00 PM »
Okay, I actually submitted the rule proposal that was voted on and accepted for Classic legality.

Here's what it says: The model must have been designed, built, or flown before midnight December 31, 1969. That means if the model was designed just prior to midnight on December 31, 1969 it is still legal.

Now the rest of the story: My proposal actually read: Designed, built, and flown prior to midnight on December 31, 1969. When it was sent out for a vote, someone had mis-typed it to read Designed, built, or flown prior to midnight December 31, 1969. That was the wording that was voted on and passed. Because of that a design need not have ever flown to be considered legal. That proposal also stated that that cutoff date was a permanent one for Classic.

If you designed and flew that ship at the 1964 Nats in Senior (Which was won, by the way, by Barry Simmons of New Jersey...) then it is Classic legal. You do not need to prove it any further. Your word is plenty good enough.

Bob Hunt

 

Thank you - I was about to abandon the project.  Do you know if Barry still flies?  He is the one person that may have a picture or know someone who does.  For the practice days we both flew a bunch on the same part of the tarmac and everybody with a camera was taking pictures - mostly of Larry's Blue Angel.  It was fun being 17.

Thanks again - Ken Culbertson
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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2018, 06:44:20 PM »
Hi Ken:

I haven't heard anything about Barry Simmons in nearly 50 years! I'll ask Larry if he is still around and if he has any contact info.

Later - Bob

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 07:42:47 AM »
Hi Ken:

I haven't heard anything about Barry Simmons in nearly 50 years! I'll ask Larry if he is still around and if he has any contact info.

Later - Bob
The quest for a picture paid off yesterday when we found the key to an old storage cabinet.  I found a couple of slides that my Mother took just before and at the 1964 Nats.  One just before my Grandmother turned and slipped putting her hand through my outboard wing which ultimately cost me 1st (long story).  Barry and Larry may still be the only people still alive that saw it enough to remember it but, I have the pictures now so don't bother them.  It will be easy to tell I am 17 in the pictures - I had hair and it wasn't white!

I will post them here for the record.    Maybe some other kid turned old fart will remember it.  I also included my "Proof of Nobler" picture.  I was 12.

Ken

« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 07:32:05 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2018, 05:33:53 PM »
Having found "documentation" for my design I have a few more legality questions before I start building.  First is the engine.  The original had a Fox 35 but size wise it was really in the .46 range.  I know that we are not bound by the engine type but are we by the displacement?  I want to use an OS46LA or electric.
If I go electric do I have to maintain the cowling shape?  For that matter, we did not use mufflers in 1964 so the cowling is designed to be removed without having to deal with the muffler.  Can that be changed so that it can be removed without having to remove the muffler?

It was covered by jap tissue and dope which was fuel proof but not Grandmother proof.  Do I have to do it the same way?

Now for the landing gear.  I had two sets.  One for pavement with wedge wheels in pants and the other for grass with fat wheels and no pants.  All of the pictures show the grass set.   Can I still use both sets?  Sandpiper II (1966) had tricycle and III (1967) had fuselage mount.  My profile is of version III which was the better of the series but I have no chance of finding any documentation for them.

Sorry to be such a pain but I really want to take the plane to VCS and the Nats in 2019 where rules will be enforced.  Better to know now that I don't have a problem.

Thanks - Ken
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2018, 10:10:16 PM »
    The critical criteria for Classic is moments, spans, shapes, areas and air foils. Engine size does not matter. Guys have been stuffing ST.46's into Nobler's for Classic for a long time and the AeroTiger .36 is a favorite for Classic models if you can come up with one. I would try and keep all the original cowling shapes just because that's what you built back then, and alloances can be made for mufflers and any slight changes to accommodate a muffler is understandable. Covering and finishing is up to you also, but if I were you I would try and replicate that and in the spot where your dear Grandmother inserted her hand, I would put the sentiment, "In Loving Memory of my Grandma, (insert name here.) It's an interesting story and part of your history and the model's history and will make for some interesting chit chat at the flying field. As for landing gear, build it with the grass gear and make up the pavement gear and keep looking for photos. I think you will find that the model and it's vback story will be well received in Tucson next year.
   Good luck and  have fun,
    Dan McEntee
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2018, 07:37:33 AM »
    The critical criteria for Classic is moments, spans, shapes, areas and air foils. Engine size does not matter. Guys have been stuffing ST.46's into Nobler's for Classic for a long time and the AeroTiger .36 is a favorite for Classic models if you can come up with one. I would try and keep all the original cowling shapes just because that's what you built back then, and alloances can be made for mufflers and any slight changes to accommodate a muffler is understandable. Covering and finishing is up to you also, but if I were you I would try and replicate that and in the spot where your dear Grandmother inserted her hand, I would put the sentiment, "In Loving Memory of my Grandma, (insert name here.) It's an interesting story and part of your history and the model's history and will make for some interesting chit chat at the flying field. As for landing gear, build it with the grass gear and make up the pavement gear and keep looking for photos. I think you will find that the model and it's vback story will be well received in Tucson next year.
   Good luck and  have fun,
    Dan McEntee
Thanks Dan - I think the plane just named and the patch is a priceless idea!  Fortunately I remember the movements and where the airfoil came from but, measurements are foggy.  I am 5'11 in that picture and if you take a measurement of the wing and me it comes out at about 65+ inches.  You would have to be crazy to put a Fox 35 in a 65" plane but I was a Junior in HS and I had a Fox 35 and could not afford a ST46 so maybe I was a bit crazy.

Ken
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Online De Hill

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2018, 05:54:13 PM »
I talked to Larry Scarinzi tonight. A few years ago he got Barry Simon's phone number from a friend and called him up . Larry got ahold of Barry's wife on the phone; She told him that Barry died in 1995 at the age of 47 years from a heart attack. He was an engineer by profession. 

It's a shame that he has passed.



Thank you - I was about to abandon the project.  Do you know if Barry still flies?  He is the one person that may have a picture or know someone who does.  For the practice days we both flew a bunch on the same part of the tarmac and everybody with a camera was taking pictures - mostly of Larry's Blue Angel.  It was fun being 17.

Thanks again - Ken Culbertson
De Hill

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2018, 06:35:31 PM »
I talked to Larry Scarinzi tonight. A few years ago he got Barry Simon's phone number from a friend and called him up . Larry got ahold of Barry's wife on the phone; She told him that Barry died in 1995 at the age of 47 years from a heart attack. He was an engineer by profession. 

It's a shame that he has passed.
I am saddened to hear that.  I only met Barry over the 4 days of the 64 NATS.  He was a very nice person and really good flier.  47 is just too young.

Ken
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Help make me legal
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2018, 01:15:13 PM »
I have one like that. Designed, built and flown by my cousin, Bill Mayo at Whittier Narrows from fall 1967 to early 1970s. Called, the Raven, it was his first effort at designing a stunt plane. Aerodynamics were based (loosely) on a Chipmunk. I have the original butcher paper drawings and a couple of pictures, but it was never published. I suppose that's enough.
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