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Classic Designs => Classic Planes => Topic started by: James Mills on September 09, 2011, 10:10:43 PM

Title: Caprice
Post by: James Mills on September 09, 2011, 10:10:43 PM: I know Bob and many of the others who have built a Caprice use the Aero 36. Would a Magnum 36 for power work?

Thanks,

James
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Bill Little on September 09, 2011, 11:14:20 PM: Hi James,

The Magnum .36XLS (square head) will work fine. Remember it does have a bit different "run" from the AT .36.

Bill
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: peabody on September 10, 2011, 06:42:25 AM: Yes
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: James Mills on September 10, 2011, 12:31:22 PM: Quote from: peabody on September 10, 2011, 06:42:25 AM
Yes

Peabody whick way are you voting, on Stuka you said "no".

James
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Steve Helmick on September 10, 2011, 04:07:13 PM: You expected logic? From Peabody? Really? LL~ Steve
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: john e. holliday on September 11, 2011, 07:51:50 AM: I promised not to say anything about Mr. P. But, why not go electric like Bobby has? H^^
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: peabody on September 11, 2011, 08:16:25 AM: James...
A definition of insanity that I frequently use is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results......

Since you asked the same question on both boards almost simultaneously, I assumed that you were looking for different results....
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Bob Hunt on September 11, 2011, 08:18:05 AM: Hi all:

James also posted this question on the "other" forum, so I'll post here what I posted there as well in answer to his question:

The Caprice will fly just fine with the Magnum 36. In fact, that's what I originally planned to put in the replica model. The original one - back in 1967 - had a Fox 35 originally and flew okay with it, and it really came to life when I retrofitted an OS 35 S into it. That model, by the way, weighed in at 50 ounces or so. The new one is 41 ounces now (was 39 ounces when it came off the bench ready for the first flight). Some trim weight here and there and a bit of oil soakage (man, do I love electric power...) has added a few ounces.

I'd have to say that the Aero Tiger 36 from Randy is the preferred engine. It very powerful, easy to tune, powerful, reliable, powerful, friendly, and, oh yes, it's powerful. Did I mention that it was powerful? If possible I'd use the Aero Tiger, but in a pinch the Magnum will do fine.

The attached photos depict the nose with the Magnum fitted during construction. The change to the Aero Tiger was made before the first flight.

Later - Bob
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Randy Powell on September 11, 2011, 11:45:37 AM: Wow, Peabody misquoting Einstein.
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: James Mills on September 11, 2011, 12:38:25 PM: Quote from: peabody on September 11, 2011, 08:16:25 AM
James...
A definition of insanity that I frequently use is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results......

Since you asked the same question on both boards almost simultaneously, I assumed that you were looking for different results....
That's a silly assumption. I posted on both sites because I don't assume everyone visits both sites.

James
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: James Mills on September 11, 2011, 12:39:40 PM: Quote from: john e. holliday on September 11, 2011, 07:51:50 AM
I promised not to say anything about Mr. P. But, why not go electric like Bobby has? H^^
John,

I am planning to go electric, just wasn't planning to do it with a classic bird.

James
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Bill Little on September 12, 2011, 01:04:46 PM: Quote from: James Mills on September 11, 2011, 12:39:40 PM
John,

I am planning to go electric, just wasn't planning to do it with a classic bird.

James

Hi James,

Not trying to "start"anything, and Mr. Hunt might have changed is mind since we talked about it, but he said he still liked to use an IC engine in his "Classic" models.

I'm sure he will comment if I am wrong. ;D

As to the Magnum, we have used it and found it is a fine stunt engine "out of the box" run with PTG's set up, but it ain't an Aero Tiger .36. However, it did power Aaron's Ares that he used to win his class in Classic at Brodak's a few years ago. ;D

Bill
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Bob Hunt on September 12, 2011, 06:11:14 PM: Bill is not wrong; I will not use electric power inClassic or OTS. This is a personal decision and I really don't care if others choose to use electric power for their models in those events. I just don't feel that it is in the spirit of the events for me. True, modern Schneurle engines are probably not either, but it is getting difficult to find useable, reliable older engines for those craft. If a rule was passed stipulating that we had to use period accurate engines, I suppose I'd go shopping for one...

Later - Bob Hunt
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Ted Fancher on October 09, 2011, 11:05:26 PM: Quote from: Bob Hunt on September 12, 2011, 06:11:14 PM
Bill is not wrong; I will not use electric power inClassic or OTS. This is a personal decision and I really don't care if others choose to use electric power for their models in those events. I just don't feel that it is in the spirit of the events for me. True, modern Schneurle engines are probably not either, but it is getting difficult to find useable, reliable older engines for those craft. If a rule was passed stipulating that we had to use period accurate engines, I suppose I'd go shopping for one...

Later - Bob Hunt

Hmmm. OK Bubba,

Can I go one step further. Was just fooling around with my old Chizler and pulled a new .25VF out of the closet with a header attached, looked at that fat belly and got to thinking what would Uncle Mikey say if I showed up in Tucson with a Chizler with a tiny little .25 in it. Shucks, its just a fancy muffler and every one is using mufflers in the Classic ships along with their Aero Tigers.

The Chizler has to be repainted and recovered anyway (like all of my old colored paper classic ships, the plyspan has split in numerous places) and I was thinking about dropping an ST .46 in it for desert flying purposes. Alas, the nose isn't wide enough and I don't want to carve up any of the STs to squeeze them in...plus they weighs a lot more than the Big Art .35 which already made the thing nose heavy with the muffler on it. The little VF just seems "right" somehow.

Are we talking the infamous slippery slope here?

Ted
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Bill Little on October 09, 2011, 11:35:04 PM: Well, Brother Ted,

You Can use one of Randy's can mufflers hung off the end of the header, maybe even get one in CF!

I am still planning on doing the surgery on the '59 Ares to see how the .25VF WITH a pipe does in it. But if it turns out as well as I expect, and it should, I would only enter it in PAMPA class. S?P

Bill
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Randy Powell on October 10, 2011, 09:21:35 AM: Ted,

Well, you could use the VF25 with a 1/4 wave "muffler". Or you could stick a PA 40UL in there. They only weigh a touch over 8oz.
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Ted Fancher on October 10, 2011, 09:47:32 AM: Quote from: Randy Powell on October 10, 2011, 09:21:35 AM
Ted,

Well, you could use the VF25 with a 1/4 wave "muffler". Or you could stick a PA 40UL in there. They only weigh a touch over 8oz.

Bill and Randy,

Oooops. Just reread my post and see that I forgot to mention my intention is to use a pipe. It's something I've wanted to try for many years and when the covering started popping on the Chizler I just thought this might be the impetus I need to try it out.

Back in the WAM "A" stunt days we did some pretty amazing things with VECO .19BBs. David's dad had a beautiful Dolphin with one that flew brilliantly and another flying buddy had a Gieseke Nobler with one that was very competitive...plus a lot of Banshees, etc. that seemed to fly better with the .19s than they did with the "standard" Fox and Max .35s. If the little .25 can boost that performance five or 10 percent with its greater raw power plus a pipe I think the result could be awesome.

By the way, we flew those airplanes almost exclusively with Rev Up 10X4s cut to a satisfying length and spinning at somewhere between 10 to 11K (although we didn't use tachs in those day). Sounds strangely like what we do nowadays with our .40s through .75s. Of course, we didn't make the connection between the high rev low pitch thing and the improved airplane performance. Went back to our Max .35s and ST .46s for a decade or more before somebody back east put two and two together.

Ted
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Terrence Durrill on October 10, 2011, 10:24:43 AM: Electrics are fine for those who want to use them and find satisfaction in that variant of control line flying. Many, however, will never consider electrics because they depart too far from what control line has been for the last 50 years. It is like the Archer who prefers the classic composite bow to the mechanical monster known as the compound bow. It just gets too far away from what many have felt control line to be. No offense to the electric guys, but many control line fliers will never take that route for the reasons I have described......TDurrill D>K H^^
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Balsa Butcher on October 10, 2011, 10:34:32 AM: I'm not in favor of tuned pipes in classic. It's bad enough that electrics are allowed (I know,they are waay better than IC engines etc., heard it all but don't believe they are true to the spirit of the event). It could become PAMPA stunt with no skill classes using (mostly) smaller models with undersized horizontal stab/elevators. Is that what we want? ???
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Randy Powell on October 10, 2011, 10:51:10 AM: Ted,

I want to watch Uncle Mikey when you show up with a Chizler with tuned pipe. His face may be the inspiration for a new color. LL~
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: john e. holliday on October 16, 2011, 08:29:31 AM: I too want to be there for that tuned pipe set up. Have already seen some of the new stuff being used. Besides I think you have to get it by Robin and Lou/Lew. LL~ LL~ LL~
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Steve Helmick on November 13, 2011, 11:15:49 PM: Quote from: john e. holliday on October 16, 2011, 08:29:31 AM
I too want to be there for that tuned pipe set up. Have already seen some of the new stuff being used. Besides I think you have to get it by Robin and Lou/Lew. LL~ LL~ LL~

I'm thinking that if somebody can e-power a Classic, then a tuned pipe should be just as legal. The e-power does have an advantage, no doubt about that. If you allow electrics and don't allow pipes, then the IC power is just not going to survive in Classic. I'm thinking a Shark 45 would fit a pipe pretty easily. Just offset the nose strut to clear the header. H^^ Steve

PS: I'm not in favor of electrics in Classic.
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Steve Helmick on December 10, 2011, 06:01:25 PM: A few weeks ago, I took the bull by the horns and sent an email to Robin Sizemore about allowing a tuned pipe in a Classic (at VSC), pointing out that if electric is allowed, the pipe would only help to even the playing field for IC powered Classics. Robin and Lou aren't buying any of that chit, so the reply was basically "no thanks!". You can go ahead and enter an electron powered Classic if you wish, but expect some serious frowns from competitors and Appearance Point judges. The piped IC Classic will earn you even harsher treatment. Dang. LL~ Steve
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Randy Powell on December 10, 2011, 07:54:21 PM: Yea, that maintains the spirit of the event. Electric and tuned pipes.
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: RandySmith on January 09, 2012, 10:46:32 PM: Quote from: Steve Helmick on December 10, 2011, 06:01:25 PM
A few weeks ago, I took the bull by the horns and sent an email to Robin Sizemore about allowing a tuned pipe in a Classic (at VSC), pointing out that if electric is allowed, the pipe would only help to even the playing field for IC powered Classics. Robin and Lou aren't buying any of that chit, so the reply was basically "no thanks!". You can go ahead and enter an electron powered Classic if you wish, but expect some serious frowns from competitors and Appearance Point judges. The piped IC Classic will earn you even harsher treatment. Dang. LL~ Steve

I do not see how they can possibly dis-allow cf pipes if someone shows up with them, Same for electric classic ships, nothing in the rules to disqualify them, and if you think about it what is the differance between allowing modern Electric power plants but not 25 year old pipe power plants?

Randy
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: john e. holliday on January 10, 2012, 09:12:53 AM: In the years I have seen electric in Old Time and Classic. In Classic there have been planes flown with rear exhaust engines. I don't really think that Lou or Robin will keep you from flying. I don't think the judges will care either way and will score you on how well you fly. My opinion and not theirs. VD~
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Bill Little on January 10, 2012, 12:10:21 PM: Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 10, 2011, 09:47:32 AM
Bill and Randy,

(snip)
By the way, we flew those airplanes almost exclusively with Rev Up 10X4s cut to a satisfying length and spinning at somewhere between 10 to 11K (although we didn't use tachs in those day). Sounds strangely like what we do nowadays with our .40s through .75s.
Of course, we didn't make the connection between the high rev low pitch thing and the improved airplane performance.
Went back to our Max .35s and ST .46s for a decade or more before somebody back east put two and two together.

Ted

Hi Ted,

I am brought back to the article on Juri Sirotkin and his 1964 WC. The prop was ID'ed as about 10" X 4" pitch.

And it was reported his engine was turning pretty fast. Seems he had one of the first high rpm low pitch that was highly successful! ;D

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: RandySmith on January 10, 2012, 12:32:36 PM: Quote from: Bill Little on January 10, 2012, 12:10:21 PM
Hi Ted,

I am brought back to the article on Juri Sirotkin and his 1964 WC. The prop was ID'ed as about 10" X 4" pitch.

And it was reported his engine was turning pretty fast. Seems he had one of the first high rpm low pitch that was highly successful! ;D

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Hi Bill

There were many many people that used hi RPM 40 or more years ago in Stunt, Even Noblers with FOX 36X turning up along with Johnson and K&B engines spinning very fast. I had profile stunt planes over 40 years ago that I used FOX 36s turning 4 to 4.5 pitch props, along with ST 35s, and a couple of other engines I ran at Hi RPM. This was NOT uncommon.
Many people back then did try to run the FOX 35 in a very slow deep 4 stroke..kinda like Geiseke did, but the engine almost shutting off in the wingover corner wasn't anything that appealed to me. So when I did use a slower FOX 35 on my Smith Nobler I used the 35 with lots of nitro and a 5 pitch prop.
I got a hint on that by smelling Billy's engine running ;D, plus there was always lots of Missle Mist hanging around my house
Regards
Randy
Title: Re: Caprice
Post by: Bill Little on January 10, 2012, 03:39:31 PM: Thanks, Randy. I was just pointing out to Ted that the World Championships were won this way in 1964. I ran high rpm/low pitch around 1964. Not because I knew anything about it, just that was the way the engines liked to run. ;D

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM