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Classic Designs => Classic Planes => Topic started by: Tom Vieira on January 09, 2019, 05:44:21 AM
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Howdy guys,
my first full fuse build! figured I'd post a couple pics of my progress. Not exactly up to date (I'm well in to making a mess out of the cowl and hollowing out the blocks), but she's coming along nicely!
I was planning on a ROJETT 61 Cast as a motor, but after a few recent wrecks (I can barely manage a beginner pattern at the moment....), I'm going with the 46AXII as I had one sitting under my bench. she's portly, but it'll work.
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for reference on the weight of the 46AXII. i'll probably use the jett muffler, which is a scant 1.3oz compared to the 3.9oz "powerbox" muffler it comes with, or the 2.8 compared to the LA series mufflers.
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My first full fuse build was a Vector along with my first experience hollowing blocks, I too struggled through it! Your Gypsy is looking good, hang in there it will be worth it!!
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Thanks!
I'm hitting that point where it is stupid tempting to rush through the rest of it saying "good enough". I'm hardly an accomplished pilot or finisher, but, I'd at least like it to look super cool until I manage to stuff it! hahahahaha!
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I think the somewhat "heavy" engine will come in handy as nose weight.
If you are, as you say, a beginner stunt flyer, a heavy finish is a total waste of time, money, and mass. Just get it in the air and learn to fly.
The BIG hurdle with a full body stunter is getting the engine/tank system to work right. The almost-certain adjustments will compromise your finishing efforts.
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Hi Paul,
you're absolutely correct. with the finish, I'm just looking for it to not look like total hell and some hack put it together. it's hardly going to be a plane to "show off". but, if you're going to do it, might as well do it as best you can (within reason), right?
she won't do anything crazy until I can reliably fly the stunt pattern without stuffing it ;) that's what my flight streak and RST are for!
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This weekend's progress....
made the tips, sanded the wing, mated the fuse!
not digging the huge holes left by the way the tips are made out of stacking sheets and carving/sanding, but the instructions show them as well and say it'll look fine when it's done... we'll see!
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woooo!!!!! mock up time!!!!!!
I need to get the rudder and elevator covered before attaching, along with the turtle deck done. but, I could resist taping on the parts for a mockup! there's a light clouded by balsa dust at the end of this tunnel!
excuse the glorious mess of a garbage box. I tend to not throw anything out until a project is complete! hard lessons learned as a youngster.....
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holy crap! it looks like a plane!!!!
finally was able to do a complete mockup and mount the tail feathers. The 46AXII is WAY to heavy for the nose of this ship, it balances pretty much on the leading edge! That huge muffler is also the only one I had that fit, I tried a muffler from a 40FP and it wouldn't go on, same for the tube muffler I have from ROJETT. not sure what's up with that, but the spacing on this for the bolt holes seems llllloooooooooooong compared to normal.
So, i'll likely run a 40FP or LA that I have, or track down a 46LA. no weight yet, i'll do that tonight. but, I have hours and hours of sanding to come....
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Nicely done TJ
I would add some sheer webs on to the wing spar.
My opinion is that right now time in the air if far more precious that time working on finish. My suggestion is to go with some king of shrink covering and go fly.
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hi guys! and thanks!
I have a couple of "beaters" all ready to go, and just waiting on the weather. I quite enjoy playing with the silkspan and dope, though my girlfriend gets annoyed with me doing it in the basement when it's too cold out ;) at least we've reached the "you can work in the garage without freezing your stones off" season!
the weeks of sanding would still need to happen even with monokote. all of the blocks are "rough" sanded to shape, hard to tell in the pics.
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Nice job. Did you use a Brodak wing jig to construct the wing? 8)
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Nice job. Did you use a Brodak wing jig to construct the wing? 8)
yessir!
though, rather than using the thin plywood pieces used for end supports again, I think i'll use some MDF/nails/rubber bands to support the ends. or some machinist parallels I have in the garage.
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Thanks for the reply. I have built a few wings using this method have found it works pretty well. Your improvements should make it even better. 8)
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Nice job esp. as it's your first "big" full bodied stunt ship.
Looking at the front of the plane in one of the views, I want to make this cautionary warning. Don't make the front "scoop", or air opening too large.
To get decent cooling airflow through the front and out the air exits you need to have at least twice the exhaust area your intact has.
You probably know this from your RC flying as it is, but I couldn't leave this interesting build without making this comment. I got bit by this error and had to shrink up the intake while flying in a contest. The engine got rather hot, until I fixed the problem. A bit of ribbing too, as I knew better... ;D
Best wishes, Jobelcrank, aka John Miller
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Hi John!
yup, you raise a good point. I do have two long and wide vents on the bottom, that from the calibrated eyeball, appear to be significantly larger in area than the intake side, so I *should* be good!
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I built the Gypsy 5 years ago. The plans at that time called for a 3/4 extension on the front of the engine. With a .46 LA and the extension the balance came out on the money. APC 11.5 x 4 prop. Without that extension and with a heavy engine your plane won't turn. A .40 won't fly it well either. If I was to do it again I'd use a Stalker .51.
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TJ, your woodwork is beautiful so don’t sell yourself short on the finish. Pinned to the top of the finishing forum is a post by Randy Ryan and it’s a simple to follow format to getting a beautiful finish. The Gypsy is a gorgeous model and I think if you put your mind to it, yours is going to be one of the best examples built. Not yet having the flying skills for a whole pattern isn’t a good reason (in my opinion) to skimp on the finish of this plane. The flying skills will come. Even if you finish this model to a 20 pointer and then plow it into the ground, no biggie. Build and finish another.
Im watching this one.
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Thanks Clint!
We'll see how nicely she turns out. She's back on the operating table after being put aside because I was sick of looking at her and the mountain of dust with very little progress "obvious" ;) she's much closer to being ready than I remember! maybe another week or so of touching up and then it's time to start making a stinky sticky mess of things ;)
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so, I now have a bit of a quandary....
I originally planned on a 46AXII for this ship, but, it was just waaaaaaaayyyyy too heavy for this application. so, I figured I'd swap it out for an LA46. here's the problem, motor mount holes aren't even close, so I need to find a way to drill new ones and put brass inserts in nice and straight. that should be fun...
OR...
I have a ROJETT 61 I could run (it has a 46 sized case) that would only require a little clearancing on the motor mount beams as well as the portion of the top block that covers the beams. it too is fairly heavy, but is still significantly lighter than the 46AXII.....
gotta love going back to pretty close to step one when you're this close!
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I know absolutely zero about the OS AXII, but the 46LA should work great in that model.
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Use aluminum pads to mount the .46LA.
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thought about that as well.
really, the only real sticking point I have is figuring out how to jig this thing up nice and square to drill new holes, without banging it up to bad.
see, this is why you spend an extra 10 minutes early on in construction to save hours of aggravation when the finish "was" in sight ~^
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thought about that as well.
really, the only real sticking point I have is figuring out how to jig this thing up nice and square to drill new holes, without banging it up to bad.
see, this is why you spend an extra 10 minutes early on in construction to save hours of aggravation when the finish "was" in sight ~^
Jim lee has the drill guide for .46la. Really neat
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Tissue has commenced!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190429/51402f88bb95e6de2549db5a70ecb14a.jpg)
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I like it! This is where it starts to really get fun!
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thanks!
i'm hoping that any imperfections (small dents, scratches, bunched up tissue) actually play in to my planned paint scheme for this... we'll see.....
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Seems you're having fun. Cool plane.
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..., bunched up tissue)
If it's not over an open bay you know you can add dope and sand that away right?
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yup. however, the way the Brodak kit has you making wing tips on this, rather than a block, you stack together a couple 3/8" sheets. you can see in the pic this leaves the front and the rear of the tip open. you can also kinda see in the pic that a wrinkle starts in this open spot, and goes in to the solid. it may soften a little as i apply more dope, but, probably not. the rest of em i should be able to correct.
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Have you tried a little “gentle” persuasion with a heat gun?
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i didn't think that worked with brodak tissue?
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If it were me I'd just cut the paper our and slip a couple of pieces of LIGHT balsa and slip them in those open wingtip areas before I went much further. Artfully sand and fill them to blend them in. At this point re-finishing should not take much extra time. Your tips will be much cleaner with little effect on the finished weight. 8)
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Fillets!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190523/f924a577c9ce5712df6ccb8194682006.jpg)
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Fillets!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190523/f924a577c9ce5712df6ccb8194682006.jpg)
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i didn't think that worked with brodak tissue?
If you are careful not to overheat it.
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Silver! Wow, looks like crap...
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Silver! Wow, looks like crap...
That's the point of silver. Now fix the crap.
Btw, what's the propane tank for?
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hahahha, good point!
tank is acting like a perch for my water catcher.
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Shoulda used some talc in the dope as a filler.... oh well. Ssnd and sand and sand......
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I stopped using filler coats quite awhile ago. I just use unthinned clear. Keep putting on coats and sanding till it's flat. Lighter that way.
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Time for color!
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Sneak peek
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stay tuned!
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Congrats on doing a very nice job on your first full bodied stunter. An La 46 will be just right for that bird. Make certain that you can adjust the tank up and down to get the engine run you need. Cheers,PhillySkip
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Congrats on doing a very nice job on your first full bodied stunter. An La 46 will be just right for that bird. Make certain that you can adjust the tank up and down to get the engine run you need. Cheers,PhillySkip
Think he is puttin a RO61 in it...
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Hi Skip
Thanks! She'll be getting a Jett 61, couldn't help myself.... but, yes, plenty of tank room! She's a but chunky (all kit wood....), so I figured a bigger engine wouldn't hurt!
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she's hinged! not too much more to go now ;D
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Good enough to show you guys! Still some housekeeping like drilling out the back of the spinner, putting in the fuel tank (lost the one I was going to use...), tie the leadouts, etc. But here she is!
I called her "First Attempt", as she's my first full fuse build from a kit. Learned a TON during this build, and they can only get better from here!
Paint is inspired by Disney's "Planes" movie. At the end, "Dusty Crophopper" is dressed up in "Jolly Wrenches" livery flying with "Skipper" off the aircraft carrier "Dwight D. Flysenhower". What can I say, I'm just a big kid at heart!
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That Jett 61 should pull her around nicely! 49 oz as she sits. Mess of props on the way to try. May need to go three blades to load the motor enough, but we'll see.....
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T.J. if the nose is rigid you should dial in that Jet 61 relatively easy. Take some videos and add them here. And yes that war bird looks, that plane is screaming for panel lines and some rivets here and there. I would even go as far as leaving it flat and the heck with appearance shiny BS and keep the war plane flat colors looks. Weathering anyone?
When do you plan to fly it?
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thanks!
hoping to fly it tuesday night. props and fuel tank show up tomorrow.
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Done! Hope she flies nice!
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Make a video with the first flights.
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will do!
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ran 5 or 6 tanks tanks through her this weekend to get to know the motor a bit. wow, that jett starts nice and sounds mean! has a nice solid 4-2-4 break tilting the nose up, settling back down overhead, and such. can't wait to fly her! kinda sucked starting it inverted, I flooded her a couple times, but that'll come along nicely with practice. can't wait to fly her tonight, weather permitting!
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Thanks Ty!
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Okie dokie, some updates on this.... I figure i'd let you guys know how things have gone.
First couple of flights were completely disheartening. I couldn't do an outside loop with it to save my life, it would literally try to fall out of the sky! I spent some time playing with the handle, thinking I could get by with a couple tweaks, nope. I was feeling like a failure.
To the chagrin of my girlfriend, I commandeered the kitchen table (glass top and I could work 360* around the ship) for an evening. I leveled the table, then blocked her up on the table looking for anything that was way out of whack. I mean, I was on the other side of the Atlantic compared to where I needed to be. Everything was within a millimeter or two of where I needed to be, not even close to what I was looking for. ugh.... OK, on to the next.....
During this, I received a call from Bruce Perry, who was reading about my troubles via facebook (gasp!). After much discussion, and agreeing that my numbers made sense (though, he wasn't a fan of the mm or two out of whack, but agreed it shouldn't be enough to be completely unflyable) he asked what prop I was running. I had a master airscrew 11.5x5 on it (i think that's what it was). "Bingo, 90% of your problems". Turns out, while that airscrew looked sweet with the paint job, they are a joke for stunt. Lesson learned! I swapped it out for an APC 12x6, on top of not being a wuss with the CG and added some weight to the tail (it's supposed to have a fox 35, and a half inch prop extension... I didn't use an extension and the motor is a Jett61), NIGHT AND DAY! I have something I can work with!
Last night, I went for longer lines. I was running 60' eye to eye, and moved to 66' eye to eye. Wow, night and day again! I didn't feel nearly as cramped in the circle, and made maneuvering much more civilized. Handling was so confidence inspiring enough that I ventured out of the beginners pattern a bit, adding in what resembled a reverse wing over, the 6 inverted laps, outside squares, and square 8's. This is also an incredibly easy ship to take-off and land with, it's the first time I managed a nice long roll-out, and a smooth climb that lasted the entire lap. landings are great as well!
Next season is going to be fun #^ #^ #^
Time to winterize her, hang her up, and break out beaters to stuff learning the rest of the pattern! Intermediate, here I come!
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Okie dokie, some updates on this.... I figure i'd let you guys know how things have gone.
First couple of flights were completely disheartening. I couldn't do an outside loop with it to save my life, it would literally try to fall out of the sky! I spent some time playing with the handle, thinking I could get by with a couple tweaks, nope. I was feeling like a failure.
To the chagrin of my girlfriend, I commandeered the kitchen table (glass top and I could work 360* around the ship) for an evening. I leveled the table, then blocked her up on the table looking for anything that was way out of whack. I mean, I was on the other side of the Atlantic compared to where I needed to be. Everything was within a millimeter or two of where I needed to be, not even close to what I was looking for. ugh.... OK, on to the next.....
During this, I received a call from Bruce Perry, who was reading about my troubles via facebook (gasp!). After much discussion, and agreeing that my numbers made sense (though, he wasn't a fan of the mm or two out of whack, but agreed it shouldn't be enough to be completely unflyable) he asked what prop I was running. I had a master airscrew 11.5x5 on it (i think that's what it was). "Bingo, 90% of your problems". Turns out, while that airscrew looked sweet with the paint job, they are a joke for stunt. Lesson learned! I swapped it out for an APC 12x6, on top of not being a wuss with the CG and added some weight to the tail (it's supposed to have a fox 35, and a half inch prop extension... I didn't use an extension and the motor is a Jett61), NIGHT AND DAY! I have something I can work with!
Last night, I went for longer lines. I was running 60' eye to eye, and moved to 66' eye to eye. Wow, night and day again! I didn't feel nearly as cramped in the circle, and made maneuvering much more civilized. Handling was so confidence inspiring enough that I ventured out of the beginners pattern a bit, adding in what resembled a reverse wing over, the 6 inverted laps, outside squares, and square 8's. This is also an incredibly easy ship to take-off and land with, it's the first time I managed a nice long roll-out, and a smooth climb that lasted the entire lap. landings are great as well!
Next season is going to be fun #^ #^ #^
Time to winterize her, hang her up, and break out beaters to stuff learning the rest of the pattern! Intermediate, here I come!
Interesting since I have used the MA 11-5.5 on my LA46 for years with excellent results and the three blade version on electrics. Personally I have never had a prop cause a plane to do what you are describing. Yes the engine/prop match is important but most of the time the suckyness will show both directions.
Was the fall like a stall or just not wanting to turn enough to tuck under? I am willing to bet that it was more the CG, a bit of the 2mm and probably some handle bias but never the less the problem is fixed and that is what really matters.
If you have any down bias in the handle it would be enlightening to read some of the stuff Brett has posted on handle bias over the years. I know it made a 100% improvement in my planes performance when I adopted it after coming back to flying a few years back.
Ken
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it was like she was just running out of steam, no sure how else to describe it. not kidding when i say "all out of the sky". i'd lose all tension and have to step back a couple feet even during a single outside loop. tension was also less than confidence inspiring during a normal wingover.
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it was like she was just running out of steam, no sure how else to describe it. not kidding when i say "all out of the sky". i'd lose all tension and have to step back a couple feet even during a single outside loop. tension was also less than confidence inspiring during a normal wingover.
I am pretty convinced that you have multiple issues going on here all of which appear to be inducing Yaw. It is acting like there is a control surface alignment issue that only manifests itself when they are deployed. That would be stab tilt or misalignment with the wing. What I would be worried about is that what you have done so far is only masking the problem and it will come back to bite you in less than ideal weather conditions.
Just for the record, handle bias will not cause this sort of thing. Sounds like this plane needs the full blown Walker Flowchart taped to it's wing.
I hope some of the real experts at this can chime in but here is what I would do if it were my plane. Tweak the flaps till the wings are level or use a trim tab if you have one. Wings level is #1 and you should have a spotter viewing the plane from the rear as it passes them. Do it in both directions. I set up a camera to do this part. Beware of moving the CG too far aft on most classics. They don't have the stab area or movements to support it.
Next I would adjust the tip weight and leadout position until I could do the wingover without problems. I would probably add some rudder until I got it right then back it off. Rudder can be your friend but it should not be allowed to mask other problems. Next I would have someone watch the plane closely as you do some soft corners both directions. It is sometimes difficult to tell whether a plane is yawing or rolling and the corrections are different. Have them stand where they will be facing the plane head on, not directly up or down wind.
Now to back to the Walker Flowchart.
One thing that I can add from personal experience. I grew up in .35 era and I learned to fly all sorts of "crap" by working around it's flaws. You simply cannot so that anymore. If you want any chance of scoring well you need a plane that is trimmed right and if you can't then you need a new plane. n1 I may have learned this too late. Back in the day I had 20/20 vision and cat like reflexes. Now I have cataracts and the reflexes of a startled opossum.LL~
Best of luck, the plane looks great - Ken
Just a side note - The head on picture you posted below shows that the inboard tip of the stab appears to be a bit higher than the outboard. It could be the camera angle but even a small amount to stab tilt will cause a rolling yaw in maneuvers. I am assuming that you probably took those measurements in the kitchen. But, was the girlfriend folding her arms and staring at you when you did? You know they think we are all crazy. LL~
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oh, it still needs proper trimming, don't get me wrong.
i'm just saying now at least i'm in at least the same state as where i need to be, not the other side of the planet.
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She suffered Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly last night.... in to the "fix it" pile for analysis after I move in a couple weeks. Doesn't look "that bad" all things considered.
Was practicing for our contest this weekend, got lost in the cloverleaf. Oops... had four great flights right before this though! Beautiful evening to have been out flying.
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Yep, I got all of 6 flights on my last plane. Much the same outcome except mine was unrecoverable.
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haha, I'd guess i got about 15-20 flights total before this happened. Four flights was just last night.
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haha, I'd guess i got about 15-20 flights total before this happened. Four flights was just last night.
I think George put the cloverleaf at the end to "Separate the Men from their Toys". ~^
ken
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Isn't this what makes control line stunt a challenge as well as fun when it works. I too was having problems with my 4 Star with engine runs and wing warp. Had the wings flying level up right and inverted but no pull on the lines as such. For grins I changed out the 9-5 to a 10-4. Some reason it made engine starting and run better. The tension on the lines and the speed was even better. But the old DOC pushed too far and engine quit in bad spot. Straight in it went. It will get rebuilt as out board wing back of leading edge needs to be rejoined. The nose needs a rebuild. Every thing else seems solid. D>K
By the way i loved the paint scheme on your plane. H^^