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Author Topic: Brodak Gypsy  (Read 14208 times)

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2019, 06:07:34 AM »
Good enough to show you guys!  Still some housekeeping like drilling out the back of the spinner, putting in the fuel tank (lost the one I was going to use...), tie the leadouts, etc.  But here she is! 

I called her "First Attempt", as she's my first full fuse build from a kit.  Learned a TON during this build, and they can only get better from here!

Paint is inspired by Disney's "Planes" movie.  At the end, "Dusty Crophopper" is dressed up in "Jolly Wrenches" livery flying with "Skipper" off the aircraft carrier "Dwight D. Flysenhower".  What can I say, I'm just a big kid at heart!

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Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2019, 06:11:34 AM »
That Jett 61 should pull her around nicely!  49 oz as she sits.  Mess of props on the way to try.  May need to go three blades to load the motor enough, but we'll see.....

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Offline TDM

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2019, 08:23:26 AM »
T.J. if the nose is rigid you should dial in that Jet 61 relatively easy. Take some videos and add them here. And yes that war bird looks, that plane is screaming for panel lines and some rivets here and there. I would even go as far as leaving it flat and the heck with appearance shiny BS and keep the war plane flat colors looks. Weathering anyone?
When do you plan to fly it?
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2019, 08:27:29 AM »
thanks!

hoping to fly it tuesday night.  props and fuel tank show up tomorrow.

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2019, 05:21:58 PM »
Done!  Hope she flies nice!

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Offline TDM

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2019, 05:55:41 AM »
Make a video with the first flights.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2019, 06:06:17 AM »
will do!

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2019, 08:17:17 AM »
ran 5 or 6 tanks tanks through her this weekend to get to know the motor a bit.  wow, that jett starts nice and sounds mean!  has a nice solid 4-2-4 break tilting the nose up, settling back down overhead, and such.  can't wait to fly her!  kinda sucked starting it inverted, I flooded her a couple times, but that'll come along nicely with practice.  can't wait to fly her tonight, weather permitting!

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2019, 10:54:18 AM »
Thanks Ty!

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2019, 07:21:43 AM »
Okie dokie, some updates on this....  I figure i'd let you guys know how things have gone.

First couple of flights were completely disheartening.  I couldn't do an outside loop with it to save my life, it would literally try to fall out of the sky!  I spent some time playing with the handle, thinking I could get by with a couple tweaks, nope.  I was feeling like a failure.

To the chagrin of my girlfriend, I commandeered the kitchen table (glass top and I could work 360* around the ship) for an evening.  I leveled the table, then blocked her up on the table looking for anything that was way out of whack.  I mean, I was on the other side of the Atlantic compared to where I needed to be.  Everything was within a millimeter or two of where I needed to be, not even close to what I was looking for.  ugh....  OK, on to the next.....

During this, I received a call from Bruce Perry, who was reading about my troubles via facebook (gasp!).  After much discussion, and agreeing that my numbers made sense (though, he wasn't a fan of the mm or two out of whack, but agreed it shouldn't be enough to be completely unflyable) he asked what prop I was running.  I had a master airscrew 11.5x5 on it (i think that's what it was).  "Bingo, 90% of your problems".  Turns out, while that airscrew looked sweet with the paint job, they are a joke for stunt.  Lesson learned!  I swapped it out for an APC 12x6, on top of not being a wuss with the CG and added some weight to the tail (it's supposed to have a fox 35, and a half inch prop extension...  I didn't use an extension and the motor is a Jett61), NIGHT AND DAY!  I have something I can work with!

Last night, I went for longer lines.  I was running 60' eye to eye, and moved to 66' eye to eye.  Wow, night and day again!  I didn't feel nearly as cramped in the circle, and made maneuvering much more civilized.  Handling was so confidence inspiring enough that I ventured out of the beginners pattern a bit, adding in what resembled a reverse wing over, the 6 inverted laps, outside squares, and square 8's.  This is also an incredibly easy ship to take-off and land with, it's the first time I managed a nice long roll-out, and a smooth climb that lasted the entire lap.  landings are great as well!

Next season is going to be fun  #^ #^ #^

Time to winterize her, hang her up, and break out beaters to stuff learning the rest of the pattern!  Intermediate, here I come!

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2019, 08:10:19 AM »
Okie dokie, some updates on this....  I figure i'd let you guys know how things have gone.

First couple of flights were completely disheartening.  I couldn't do an outside loop with it to save my life, it would literally try to fall out of the sky!  I spent some time playing with the handle, thinking I could get by with a couple tweaks, nope.  I was feeling like a failure.

To the chagrin of my girlfriend, I commandeered the kitchen table (glass top and I could work 360* around the ship) for an evening.  I leveled the table, then blocked her up on the table looking for anything that was way out of whack.  I mean, I was on the other side of the Atlantic compared to where I needed to be.  Everything was within a millimeter or two of where I needed to be, not even close to what I was looking for.  ugh....  OK, on to the next.....

During this, I received a call from Bruce Perry, who was reading about my troubles via facebook (gasp!).  After much discussion, and agreeing that my numbers made sense (though, he wasn't a fan of the mm or two out of whack, but agreed it shouldn't be enough to be completely unflyable) he asked what prop I was running.  I had a master airscrew 11.5x5 on it (i think that's what it was).  "Bingo, 90% of your problems".  Turns out, while that airscrew looked sweet with the paint job, they are a joke for stunt.  Lesson learned!  I swapped it out for an APC 12x6, on top of not being a wuss with the CG and added some weight to the tail (it's supposed to have a fox 35, and a half inch prop extension...  I didn't use an extension and the motor is a Jett61), NIGHT AND DAY!  I have something I can work with!

Last night, I went for longer lines.  I was running 60' eye to eye, and moved to 66' eye to eye.  Wow, night and day again!  I didn't feel nearly as cramped in the circle, and made maneuvering much more civilized.  Handling was so confidence inspiring enough that I ventured out of the beginners pattern a bit, adding in what resembled a reverse wing over, the 6 inverted laps, outside squares, and square 8's.  This is also an incredibly easy ship to take-off and land with, it's the first time I managed a nice long roll-out, and a smooth climb that lasted the entire lap.  landings are great as well!

Next season is going to be fun  #^ #^ #^

Time to winterize her, hang her up, and break out beaters to stuff learning the rest of the pattern!  Intermediate, here I come!
Interesting since I have used the MA 11-5.5 on my LA46 for years with excellent results and the three blade version on electrics.  Personally I have never had a prop cause a plane to do what you are describing. Yes the engine/prop match is important but most of the time the suckyness will show both directions.

Was the fall like a stall or just not wanting to turn enough to tuck under?   I am willing to bet that it was more the CG, a bit of the 2mm and probably some handle bias but never the less the problem is fixed and that is what really matters.

If you have any down bias in the handle it would be enlightening to read some of the stuff Brett has posted on handle bias over the years.  I know it made a 100% improvement in my planes performance when I adopted it after coming back to flying a few years back.

Ken
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Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2019, 08:23:04 AM »
it was like she was just running out of steam, no sure how else to describe it.  not kidding when i say "all out of the sky".  i'd lose all tension and have to step back a couple feet even during a single outside loop.  tension was also less than confidence inspiring during a normal wingover.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2019, 10:17:07 AM »
it was like she was just running out of steam, no sure how else to describe it.  not kidding when i say "all out of the sky".  i'd lose all tension and have to step back a couple feet even during a single outside loop.  tension was also less than confidence inspiring during a normal wingover.
I am pretty convinced that you have multiple issues going on here all of which appear to be inducing Yaw.  It is acting like there is a control surface alignment issue that only manifests itself when they are deployed.  That would be stab tilt or misalignment with the wing.  What I would be worried about is that what you have done so far is only masking the problem and it will come back to bite you in less than ideal weather conditions.

Just for the record, handle bias will not cause this sort of thing.  Sounds like this plane needs the full blown Walker Flowchart taped to it's wing.

I hope some of the real experts at this can chime in but here is what I would do if it were my plane.  Tweak the flaps till the wings are level or use a trim tab if you have one.  Wings level is #1 and you should have a spotter viewing the plane from the rear as it passes them.  Do it in both directions.  I set up a camera to do this part.  Beware of moving the CG too far aft on most classics.  They don't have the stab area or movements to support it.

Next I would adjust the tip weight and leadout position until I could do the wingover without problems.  I would probably add some rudder until I got it right then back it off.  Rudder can be your friend but it should not be allowed to mask other problems.  Next I would have someone watch the plane closely as you do some soft corners both directions.  It is sometimes difficult to tell whether a plane is yawing or rolling and the corrections are different.  Have them stand where they will be facing the plane head on, not directly up or down wind.

Now to back to the Walker Flowchart.

One thing that I can add from personal experience.  I grew up in .35 era and I learned to fly all sorts of "crap" by working around it's flaws.  You simply cannot so that anymore.  If you want any chance of scoring well you need a plane that is trimmed right and if you can't then you need a new plane. n1  I may have learned this too late.  Back in the day I had 20/20 vision and cat like reflexes.  Now I have cataracts and the reflexes of a startled opossum.LL~

Best of luck, the plane looks great - Ken

Just a side note - The head on picture you posted below shows that the inboard tip of the stab appears to be a bit higher than the outboard.  It could be the camera angle but even a small amount to stab tilt will cause a rolling yaw in maneuvers.  I am assuming that you probably took those measurements in the kitchen.  But, was the girlfriend folding her arms and staring at you when you did?  You know they think we are all crazy. LL~

« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 10:44:51 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2019, 10:25:14 AM »
oh, it still needs proper trimming, don't get me wrong.

i'm just saying now at least i'm in at least the same state as where i need to be, not the other side of the planet.

Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2020, 05:58:28 AM »
She suffered Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly last night....  in to the "fix it" pile for analysis after I move in a couple weeks.  Doesn't look "that bad" all things considered.

Was practicing for our contest this weekend, got lost in the cloverleaf.  Oops...  had four great flights right before this though!  Beautiful evening to have been out flying.

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2020, 11:52:40 AM »
Yep, I got all of 6 flights on my last plane. Much the same outcome except mine was unrecoverable.
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Tom Vieira

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2020, 12:05:48 PM »
haha, I'd guess i got about 15-20 flights total before this happened.  Four flights was just last night.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2020, 12:33:18 PM »
haha, I'd guess i got about 15-20 flights total before this happened.  Four flights was just last night.
I think George put the cloverleaf at the end to "Separate the Men from their Toys". ~^

ken
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Brodak Gypsy
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2020, 10:40:07 AM »
Isn't this what makes control line stunt a challenge as well as fun when it works.  I too was having problems with my 4 Star with engine runs and wing warp.   Had the wings flying level up right and inverted but no pull on the lines as such.   For grins I changed out the 9-5 to a 10-4.  Some reason it made engine starting and run better.  The tension on the lines and the speed was even better.  But the old DOC pushed too far and engine quit in bad spot.  Straight in it went.  It will get rebuilt as out board wing back of leading edge needs to be rejoined.   The nose needs a rebuild.  Every thing else seems solid. D>K 

By the way i loved the paint scheme on your plane. H^^
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