Author Topic: Are there 40 "NON Flying" points in Classic? (Read 1903 times)

Rudy Taube · « **on:** July 19, 2010, 03:00:55 PM »

Are there 40 "NON Flying" points in classic? The rules state 20 Fidelity points, then mention 20 Appearance points. I always thought it was just 20 points total? I am
finally finishing my TT to fly classic at the GS this year. 40 vs 20 NON Flying points is a big difference.

Here are the classic rule quotes (clips on this issue) from the excellent PAMPA web site:

"........ Fidelity points from 0 to 20 will be awarded for fidelity to the concept of the original design and confirmation to the spirit of the event. Obvious and or gross distortions of the original design of any eligible model in order to gain an actual or perceived performance advantage over the original design will also be subject to reduction of fidelity points. Again, the decision as to the level of distortion and the penalty appropriate for such will be at the discretion of the on- site official and not subject to dispute.
Trim devises, such as adjustable tip weights, leadouts and removable landing gear, which allow the entrant to adapt to the contest site and conditions are allowable. This would not allow the substitution of tricycle gear for a conventional gear, or vice versa, however such alteration of the original design would be subject to consideration under rule 4, above.

Contestants may enter models which they have not constructed themselves. However they will not be awarded appearance points for such a model.

Appearance points, from 0 to 20 per current AMA regulations, will be awarded prior to the contestant’s first flight. It is suggested that all models be judged together as the first official act of the competition. This allows the greatest possible accuracy of comparison for judging and also will showcase these attractive models for photo opportunities. Appearance points will be assigned by an official based on the level of craftsmanship, finish, and overall beauty of the models. .........."

I am sorry if this question has already been answered and I missed it.

Regards,

RandySmith · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2010, 03:37:00 PM »

Quote from: Rudy Taube on July 19, 2010, 03:00:55 PM

Are there 40 "NON Flying" points in classic? The rules state 20 Fidelity points, then mention 20 Appearance points. I always thought it was just 20 points total? I am
finally finishing my TT to fly classic at the GS this year. 40 vs 20 NON Flying points is a big difference.

Here are the classic rule quotes (clips on this issue) from the excellent PAMPA web site:

"........ Fidelity points from 0 to 20 will be awarded for fidelity to the concept of the original design and confirmation to the spirit of the event. Obvious and or gross distortions of the original design of any eligible model in order to gain an actual or perceived performance advantage over the original design will also be subject to reduction of fidelity points. Again, the decision as to the level of distortion and the penalty appropriate for such will be at the discretion of the on- site official and not subject to dispute.
Trim devises, such as adjustable tip weights, leadouts and removable landing gear, which allow the entrant to adapt to the contest site and conditions are allowable. This would not allow the substitution of tricycle gear for a conventional gear, or vice versa, however such alteration of the original design would be subject to consideration under rule 4, above.

Contestants may enter models which they have not constructed themselves. However they will not be awarded appearance points for such a model.

Appearance points, from 0 to 20 per current AMA regulations, will be awarded prior to the contestant’s first flight. It is suggested that all models be judged together as the first official act of the competition. This allows the greatest possible accuracy of comparison for judging and also will showcase these attractive models for photo opportunities. Appearance points will be assigned by an official based on the level of craftsmanship, finish, and overall beauty of the models. .........."

I am sorry if this question has already been answered and I missed it.

Regards,

Rudy

When I judged apparence at teh NATs in Classic there ..was.. 40 points

When I flew 40 years ago there was 40 apparence points too :-)
Randy

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2010, 06:05:02 PM »

Currently, Fidelity Points are almost never used. Not at VSC anytime recent, and I can't recall any contest I've been to that used them. All used Appearance Points, and if there were some mods made, some of those AP's went away. Technically, the right thing to do would be to announce that FP's weren't going to be used in this contest, 45 days in advance, etc. Seldom is that done.

Some want 40 APs, and some want no APs. Middle ground seems logical to me. In my experience, very seldom are less than 10 of 20 points awarded...occasionally 8, for a really ugly hunk...

Steve

Bill Little · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2010, 06:57:57 PM »

Hi Rudy,

In all the contests I have entered in Classic, no one has ever used Fidelity Points. Several years ago, the meets in the SE have all dropped Appearance Points. No real reason (except personal pride) to put a decent finish on a model, around here. Reason given was to promote more entries. Hasn't happened.......

Big Bear

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2010, 11:10:53 PM »

Thanks Guys,

1. Randy, was that this 2010 Nats? If so, it sounds like the Nats (AKA North East Regional Champs ;-) is the only place in the US that uses 40 Non Flying points in Classic? (BTW: your engines are very powerful works of art. You and Henry have done more to improve CLPA and Classic than almost anyone, thanks)

2. Steve, that's what I thought. At the CL contests where I was the CD we only used the 20 APs. I did not mention it in the announcements, I will next time. ......... I will try hard to work on my finish and avoid the "..... occasional 8, for a really ugly hunk ...."

(I hope to see you again at the GS in Oct. :-)

3. Bill, sadly I don't think there is much we can do to "add" people to our small part of the model hobby that is on the decline due to things far beyond our control (by add I mean to get more entries above the # needed just to replace those that are naturally leaving). But I do think that dropping APs is a good idea because, among other reasons, it may very well help "retain" many of us retreads that have helped CLPA remain at good enough levels to have enjoyable contests. I think many CL modelers will still build and finish beautiful models without APs, look at the beautiful models at all foreign FAI contests, no AP needed for their artistic motivation ;-). I am a big fan of showing appreciation for hard work and artistic talent. As much as I hope that APs are separated from the flying event in CLPA, for many good reasons, I also hope that we make sure that ALL our contests have separate trophies, or some form of awards, for APs to reward the top looking planes. At the Golden State Champs here in CA the Pilots choice award trophy is huge, just as large as the 1st place trophy for the top Expert flyer. :-)

I hope I have not hijacked my own thread here?

Thanks again for all your answers, you have been a big help. If it was 40 points I would not waste one more minute on Classic and just fly the PAMPA class. It will be nice to have two classes to fly in after traveling 600 miles. :-)

Regards,

RandySmith · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:33:47 AM »

Hi Rudy

I am pretty sure that the NATs still uses AP. The ones I judged used 40 point, That was a few years back when I stopped, but I judged for about 6 years.
Many people want the AP back, but this causes a problem for people who want to fly ARFs or OPPs and many contest have dropped them mainly for this reason.
If you want to really keep Classic like it was, the contest will have to use 40 APs

Randy

EddyR · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:15:47 AM »

I agree with what TY and Randy said. Getting rid of non flying points at our Huntersville contest has helped keep the event alive. More than half of the entrys are ARF's.
Ed

Paul Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2010, 09:19:56 AM »

The actual 40-point appearance point system for the classic era gave points for ORIGINALITY.
It would be contradictory to expect somebody to be both classic and original at the same time, thus FIDELITY replaces ORIGINALITY.

I accept that fidelity has gone down the road for good, but it was a good idea. For one thing, it forced the modeler to come up with documentation, which put the squeeze on some highly questionable designs. Perhaps here lies the cause of the demise.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2010, 02:45:09 PM »

We used fidelity points at a contest last weekend.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #9 on:** August 24, 2010, 08:07:16 PM »

Howard,
How were/are the modified models that were like "dad did in '67" handled?
Scale model docs, letter from mom, photos?
Chris...

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2010, 05:26:44 PM »

Howard,
Was it up to the judge(s) to catch deviations, or did he ask the competitor what, if any, changes had been made? What do you think of fidelity scoring after giving it a try?

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2010, 07:22:52 PM »

WELL...as a judge in Classic at the contest Howard is referring to... We were pretty much shocked that Fidelity Points were used. The problem with them is that the judges are then expected to be able to pick out the design mods, which just isn't realistic. We didn't know about it until the contest started, and I'm sure the entrants didn't know it until after they had flown. Certainly not in time to bring documentation...

Steve

Howard Rush · « **Reply #12 on:** September 24, 2010, 09:45:40 AM »

If there were a useful organization that maintained rules for stuff like Classic and Old Time, you wouldn't have this problem. I went to the PAMPA Web site, looked for an hour or so, and found what I thought were the rules. They had fidelity points for Classic and some oddball score sheet for Old Time. I insisted on using those rules-- partly out of orneriness, and partly to avoid a conflict. I found three completely different Old Time score sheets in the club's box of stuff.

My impression of Classic is that the original intention of seeing a bunch of airplanes again that we saw in the old days has gone by the wayside. Now it's just another dumbed-down extra event like those that make control line racing the crowd-pleaser it has become. People sell kits and plans that barely resemble the original airplanes. It's no big deal for most folks. An authentic Thunderbird and an ersatz sorta-looks-like-a-Thunderbird-from-a-distance are equivalent to them. I, however, want you people to recreate my youth.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2010, 09:49:37 AM »

Quote from: Kim Mortimore on September 01, 2010, 05:26:44 PM

Howard,
Was it up to the judge(s) to catch deviations, or did he ask the competitor what, if any, changes had been made? What do you think of fidelity scoring after giving it a try?

Bob Parker and Hube Start did the judging. I don't know their criteria. It all went well, and people humored me by going along with the "official" rules.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2010, 09:54:07 AM »

Quote from: Ed Ruane on July 21, 2010, 06:15:47 AM

I agree with what TY and Randy said. Getting rid of non flying points at our Huntersville contest has helped keep the event alive. More than half of the entrys are ARF's.
Ed

Are they keeping it alive, or are those the only people who think it's worth attending?

Howard Rush · « **Reply #15 on:** September 24, 2010, 10:17:56 AM »

Quote from: Rudy Taube on July 19, 2010, 11:10:53 PM

the Nats (AKA North East Regional Champs ;-)

They look like the Nats to me. The Northeast is one of the less represented regions.

Quote from: Rudy Taube on July 19, 2010, 11:10:53 PM

You and Henry have done more to improve CLPA and Classic than almost anyone, thanks

But electric is the future of Old Time stunt.

Quote from: Rudy Taube on July 19, 2010, 11:10:53 PM

But I do think that dropping APs is a good idea because, among other reasons, it may very well help "retain" many of us retreads that have helped CLPA remain at good enough levels to have enjoyable contests.

It wouldn't retain me. If I wanted to hang out with a bunch of model airplane purchasers, I'd just go to the local RC field. Remind me to tell you the story about the trim lines on the RC plane.

Quote from: Rudy Taube on July 19, 2010, 11:10:53 PM

I think many CL modelers will still build and finish beautiful models without APs, look at the beautiful models at all foreign FAI contests, no AP needed for their artistic motivation

You go to the World Champs and look at what the top three guys from each country bring. Then go about halfway to the back of the room at appearance judging at the US Nats. Tell me which airplanes are more impressive. On the other hand, they have Claus Maikis.

Quote from: Rudy Taube on July 19, 2010, 11:10:53 PM

I also hope that we make sure that ALL our contests have separate trophies, or some form of awards, for APs to reward the top looking planes.

I think there's a danger of having a bifurcated contest. Some guys will bring wrinkly ARFs or Sharks to fly stunt. Some guys will bring static display models to go for the good-looking-airplane trophy. Have you been to the Toledo RC Show? There are some weird sculptures there. They kinda look like airplanes, but they'd never fly. I remember seeing Bill Winter at one of those shows, shaking his head, almost in tears.

Neville Legg · « **Reply #16 on:** September 25, 2010, 05:16:32 AM »

"but electric is the future of old time stunt" ?

Isn't that an oxymoron?

They hadn't invented electricity when old time stunt was being flown!

Cheers

Howard Rush · « **Reply #17 on:** September 25, 2010, 01:14:31 PM »

Muddy Waters invented electricity about 1940.

RandySmith · « **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2010, 07:16:16 PM »

"If there were a useful organization that maintained rules for stuff like Classic and Old Time, you wouldn't have this problem. I went to the PAMPA Web site, looked for an hour or so, and found what I thought were the rules. They had fidelity points for Classic and some oddball score sheet for Old Time. I insisted on using those rules-- partly out of orneriness, and partly to avoid a conflict. I found three completely different Old Time score sheets in the club's box of stuff. "

Howard all of the rules for Ole Time, Classic , and Nostalgia 30 are being added to the PAMPA web site now, so I am told

Regards
Randy

RandySmith · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2010, 07:20:09 PM »

"Quote from: Ed Ruane on July 21, 2010, 08:15:47 AM
I agree with what TY and Randy said. Getting rid of non flying points at our Huntersville contest has helped keep the event alive. More than half of the entrys are ARF's."
Ed

"Are they keeping it alive, or are those the only people who think it's worth attending?"

I didn't say that, matter of fact, I don't believe dumping APs has anything to do with keeping the event alive, I would like to see the APs brought back
There has never been a problem flying ARFs or Bought-Borrowed planes in "ANY" PAMPA class from Expert on down

Randy