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Author Topic: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?  (Read 1315 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« on: May 26, 2023, 09:35:17 AM »
I assumed so at first.

But on further consideration, I suspect that even at 30 degree nose-up angle, having the model cocked 20-30 degrees outboard will still make it easier to score a better low speed than a fixed leadout model.  So, whether the proposal passes or not, slider-type planes will still be competitive.

I have hunch that 30 degrees will be MORE of an enforcement job for then center judge. 

Like having 30 MPH vs 60 MPHN speed limit on a city street.  The lower limit is easier to violate, even on accident.
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2023, 10:24:00 AM »
IMO.... if the 30-degree rule passes, and the low-speed scoring remains the same, LS at 30 degrees will require the equal skill as 60. You will see a difference in airplane designs, thicker wings, larger wing area, max wing span. Possibly new innovations or a direction not currently obvious.

It certainly won't change who 'WINS' as some would think; winning is more of the effort put forth than the rules in place, and those that 'WIN' now, will put forth the needed effort to keep winning....and that's how it should be.

Leave the rules alone.... put the effort in to be competitive, 'WIN', or just enjoy the event for what it is.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2023, 02:08:54 PM »
I sit here remembering the late Bill Melton flying at the Lincolns NATS when I first met him.  At no time did he get close to 20 degrees or higher than 6 feet in low speed.  I used to have one of his class 2 planes that was told not to hang it.   But somebody else thought they knew better.  No carrier after that fight. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2023, 03:01:44 PM »

It certainly won't change who 'WINS' as some would think; winning is more of the effort put forth than the rules in place, and those that 'WIN' now, will put forth the needed effort to keep winning....and that's how it should be.


Yeah, practice, skill, effort, AND a one-of-a-kind special engine built 40 years ago by a manufacturer who is long gone.

We would do well to simply replace the Profile Carrier rules with the NWS-40 rules.  Fight it our as equals with OS FP 40's.
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2023, 05:17:34 PM »
Yeah, practice, skill, effort, AND a one-of-a-kind special engine built 40 years ago by a manufacturer who is long gone.

We would do well to simply replace the Profile Carrier rules with the NWS-40 rules.  Fight it our as equals with OS FP 40's.

"AND a one-of-a-kind special engine built 40 years ago by a manufacturer who is long gone".... 40 years ago, really? Who is that? You don't need that "one-of-a-kind special engine"... many Nat's championships have been won with engines other than the one you are referencing.

NWS-40 rules are fine for NWS... plus; OS FP 40's have also been "long gone". Not that I advocate your proposal, however; if you are going to go down this road you need an engine that is available over the counter TODAY, the OS FP 40 is not.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2023, 06:45:10 AM »
I routinely fly with my Carrier Rule Committee Representative. 

ALL of his engines are left-handed.  He won't even waste his time with a standard engine.  When he gooses the throttle at low speed, the plane torques OUT not in.

He got his from K&B decades ago when he had an inside connection. 

If left-handed didn't work those who have it wouldn't defend it so strongly. 
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2023, 10:07:46 AM »
I routinely fly with my Carrier Rule Committee Representative. 

ALL of his engines are left-handed.  He won't even waste his time with a standard engine.  When he gooses the throttle at low speed, the plane torques OUT not in.

He got his from K&B decades ago when he had an inside connection. 

If left-handed didn't work those who have it wouldn't defend it so strongly.

Marc W. is a very good competitor, I would say Marc can WIN with a CW or CCW engine. You are also not taking into account all the Nat's WIN's by everyone else NOT using Left-handed engines.

IMO in the last few years, Nat's WIN's by 2-3 individuals running Left-handed engines has more to do with the lack of entries than the direction of their crankshaft rotation.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2023, 12:15:32 PM »
Marc W. is a very good competitor, I would say Marc can WIN with a CW or CCW engine. You are also not taking into account all the Nat's WIN's by everyone else NOT using Left-handed engines.

IMO in the last few years, Nat's WIN's by 2-3 individuals running Left-handed engines has more to do with the lack of entries than the direction of their crankshaft rotation.

That's a "chicken or the egg" thing.  Entries are low because most people KNOW that they can't get winning equipment.  The few participate for the heck of it maybe pick up a second or third place if the top dogs have a problem.
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2023, 12:25:36 PM »
That's a "chicken or the egg" thing.  Entries are low because most people KNOW that they can't get winning equipment.  The few participate for the heck of it maybe pick up a second or third place if the top dogs have a problem.

Seems .36 & .40 CW engine availability is a major issue. If a good "winning" left-handed or right-handed engine was available for a decent price, would that satisfy the lack of equipment being responsible for low participation or? What would a decent price be... $300, $400, $500 or?

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2023, 09:55:33 PM »
Well no matter the rule changes.  Those that love carrier will still practice and still win. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2023, 06:18:11 AM »
Seems .36 & .40 CW engine availability is a major issue. If a good "winning" left-handed or right-handed engine was available for a decent price, would that satisfy the lack of equipment being responsible for low participation or? What would a decent price be... $300, $400, $500 or?

The hypothetical high performance left-handed 36 will never happen, even at $500. 
Simply specifying off-the-shelf RC 40's would have a chance of solving the problem.  I fly Sig Skyray and NWS-40 with those. 
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2023, 09:44:57 AM »
The hypothetical high performance left-handed 36 will never happen, even at $500. 
Simply specifying off-the-shelf RC 40's would have a chance of solving the problem.  I fly Sig Skyray and NWS-40 with those.

"The hypothetical high performance left-handed 36 will never happen, even at $500".... disagree, it's possible, cost is an unknown.

Skyray & NWS-40 are fine, just not the same as AMA competitive PC, CI and CII.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2023, 07:54:24 PM »
I found a guy who can convert K&B 40's to CW rotation and change stroke to 36 or 44 for only $1,000 per unit.
We need at least 15 units to launch the project.  I am in for six, two for each event.
Of course the deal will be off if either rules change passes.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2023, 07:13:13 AM »
Fly electric. All you need to do is swap two wires...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2023, 09:36:27 AM »
Fly electric. All you need to do is swap two wires...



I found a guy who can convert K&B 40's to CW rotation and change stroke to 36 or 44 for only $1,000 per unit.
We need at least 15 units to launch the project.  I am in for six, two for each event.
Of course the deal will be off if either rules change passes.

Electric may be fine for some, not for others. For me, I need the IC engine as it's part of the CL & Carrier experience.

IMO $1000 is way out of line; $600 is more realistic. Will look into options for CW & CCW .36. .40 & .45... glad to see you think >15 unit's is needed, gives me hope the interest exists in AMA Carrier PC & CI-CII.

Offline john vlna

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2023, 12:49:50 PM »
I doubt 30 degrees kills the slider. As long as carrier is go fast and slow people will use a slider unless it is outlawed. Any one who flies 15 knows you won't go as fast without it if you want to fly slow at whatever angle the rules say, you'll use a slider. I know I would.
By the way using 2.4 for control allows you to have a servo for slide release. very reliable

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2023, 08:19:51 PM »
I find the skill of 'hanging' to be a reasonable challenge, and one that is enjoyable to fly, hence why I keep stating leave the rules alone as they are...60 degrees is good as is IMO.

Offline Kris Millard

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2023, 03:48:18 PM »
Hello all,

I am relatively new to carrier as I have been at it for 5 years now. I listen to the "old guys" a lot, as they have been there and done that. They have a lot to teach us newbies. I find all the classes intriguing as it's been pointed out I love to go fast and go slow. I will fly carrier regardless of the rules or changes. And I think most of us will continue to do so. As I see it, the only reason to make a rule change from what got us here is if it will bring new faces to the circle. So far in my experience it's not the rules but the comradery that brings people in. Last summer I learned to "hang" with a slider. It took all of 5 flights with an adjustable stop on my slider to learn it. I now crave 60 deg slow flight. This year I won first at the NW Regionals in AMA Profile.  I am a skills guy and I don't give up, I practice and listen to my mentors advice(Mike Potter-SkyRaiders). It's a challenge, embrace it! I get to fly with and learn from Burt Brokaw at the regionals, the dude is phenomenal. I told him I am dedicated to getting just one of his records away from him over breakfast one day...He laughed and said "Good luck with that kid" (I am 63). As to NWS.40, I have won 3 out of 4 NW Regionals in that class since i started attending. It is an awesome way to get into carrier. it comes down to plane selection and skills. But I don't want to see those rules on any other class. NWS.40 gets people addicted to Carrier. It's inevitable that people who like the challenge will want to progress to other classes also...Next year it's class 1 for me!

Let's all go FAST!...and slow!

Offline Kris Millard

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2023, 03:56:57 PM »
Also CW vs CCW is a personal choice, I have two "Lefty" Nelson ,36's and love them. OK one is on lone from a guy that has half a dozen lefties. They do work, but again were picking nats here. A good flyer with a CCW motor will still spank an average flyer with a lefty. Also I paid about $325 for my CW Nelson on EBAY. They are out there, just gotta look for them. Many Experianced (old) carrier pilots are willing to sell a lefty (or even donate one) to an aspiring carrier pilot if they see dedication and skills in the circle...just ask!

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2023, 05:34:29 PM »
Hello all,

I am relatively new to carrier as I have been at it for 5 years now. I listen to the "old guys" a lot, as they have been there and done that. They have a lot to teach us newbies. I find all the classes intriguing as it's been pointed out I love to go fast and go slow. I will fly carrier regardless of the rules or changes. And I think most of us will continue to do so. As I see it, the only reason to make a rule change from what got us here is if it will bring new faces to the circle. So far in my experience it's not the rules but the comradery that brings people in. Last summer I learned to "hang" with a slider. It took all of 5 flights with an adjustable stop on my slider to learn it. I now crave 60 deg slow flight. This year I won first at the NW Regionals in AMA Profile.  I am a skills guy and I don't give up, I practice and listen to my mentors advice(Mike Potter-SkyRaiders). It's a challenge, embrace it! I get to fly with and learn from Burt Brokaw at the regionals, the dude is phenomenal. I told him I am dedicated to getting just one of his records away from him over breakfast one day...He laughed and said "Good luck with that kid" (I am 63). As to NWS.40, I have won 3 out of 4 NW Regionals in that class since i started attending. It is an awesome way to get into carrier. it comes down to plane selection and skills. But I don't want to see those rules on any other class. NWS.40 gets people addicted to Carrier. It's inevitable that people who like the challenge will want to progress to other classes also...Next year it's class 1 for me!

Let's all go FAST!...and slow!

All records exist to be broken; keep at it, no question if you set your mind to it, you will achieve your goals, anyone's record included.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2023, 05:53:38 AM »
Fly electric. All you need to do is swap two wires...

I agree that a model with a slider and a clockwise electric motor could easily hang, hover, stop, and back up to the degree that the local judges allow.

But where's the challenge in that?
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2023, 12:59:39 PM »
I agree that a model with a slider and a clockwise electric motor could easily hang, hover, stop, and back up to the degree that the local judges allow.

But where's the challenge in that?

Electrics are not for me, frankly I find NO interest in them at all. Glow engines offer a more complex challenge, one that Electrics don't come close to emulating. Glow engines all the way...  y1

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Will the 30 degree rule REALLY kill the slider?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2023, 02:54:57 PM »
Well in some areas electric is required as the IC engines with mufflers still irritate some people. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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