News:




  • August 17, 2017, 07:38:42 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: What If  (Read 1317 times)

Offline john e. holliday

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 18437
What If
« on: April 20, 2017, 09:12:06 AM »
I am stirring the pot a little here as I know electric has kept some flying sites open for use.  But, in Navy carrier what if the electric motors were required to use the same props as the IC engines.  I mean what 15 engine would swing a 10 inch prop?   Even the scale classes if they were limited to the same diameter as the appropriate IC engines. S?P VD~
I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530


Online eric david conley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 441
Re: What If
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 09:41:14 AM »
      Yes John your stirring the pot a little. On my AMA planes I use the same diameter and pitch with my electrics as I use on my IC AMA planes so I'm already ahead of you. Works good for me. I've seen many different props being used by the IC carrier fliers, do we put limits or use one size fits all in carrier and scale planes? I don't think so.
Eric

Offline john vlna

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1194
Re: What If
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 03:42:16 PM »
It's not the prop that makes electrics so powerful. Like Eric I basically use the same prop as a glow plane. But what .15 glow can make a KW. Mine does 70 mph with a 8x5 ,  with about 980 watts input power. Try that with a glow motor.

Offline Paul Smith

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4205
Re: What If
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 07:13:54 AM »
Just let electrics be a separate class and leave the real engines alone.

Real engines that must compromise high speed to achieve reliable idling and still frequently flame out on low speed.
Electric motors have no such limitations.  You can dump massive amps through a motor and still dead-stop it to slow down.

There is no logical way to compare sizes of piston engines and electric motors.

I have been flying real carrier models since 1967.  If somebody wants to promote an electric event, have right at it.  But leave REAL carrier alone.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4205
Re: What If
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 09:18:34 AM »
Maybe they could let motorcycles enter horse racing with a "fair" conversion factor contrived by the motorcyclists.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
Re: What If
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 10:36:45 AM »
Maybe they could let motorcycles enter horse racing with a "fair" conversion factor contrived by the motorcyclists.

"Americans love a good horse race..."
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline john vlna

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1194
Re: What If
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 11:17:03 AM »
Just let electrics be a separate class and leave the real engines alone.

Real engines that must compromise high speed to achieve reliable idling and still frequently flame out on low speed.
Electric motors have no such limitations.  You can dump massive amps through a motor and still dead-stop it to slow down.

There is no logical way to compare sizes of piston engines and electric motors.

I have been flying real carrier models since 1967.  If somebody wants to promote an electric event, have right at it.  But leave REAL carrier alone.

Electrics do have their own events as far as the AMA events go. Unofficial are just that unofficial and are was the sponsors decide. Right now following the NCS lead, 15, sportsman and skyray are usually glow-electric combined. Some people at local contests combine other various events like nostalgia and current carrier events, I don't see it as a big problem since 15  and skyray there is a speed limit, attainable by either, and slow is flying skill.  And in sportsman most people don't go real fast and real slow, so again not a big deal.

Offline Wayne J. Buran

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
Re: What If
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 04:35:38 AM »
Just let electrics be a separate class and leave the real engines alone.

Real engines that must compromise high speed to achieve reliable idling and still frequently flame out on low speed.
Electric motors have no such limitations.  You can dump massive amps through a motor and still dead-stop it to slow down.

There is no logical way to compare sizes of piston engines and electric motors.

I have been flying real carrier models since 1967.  If somebody wants to promote an electric event, have right at it.  But leave REAL carrier alone.

I am with you on that Paul!
Thanks
Wayne
Wayne Buran
Medina, Ohio
AMA 14986 CD
USAF Veteran
35 TAC GP/ 6236 CSG, DonMuang RTAFB, Bangkok, Thailand 65-66
North Coast Controliners


"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well!

Offline Paul Smith

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4205
Re: What If
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 06:57:41 AM »
Electrics do have their own events as far as the AMA events go. Unofficial are just that unofficial and are was the sponsors decide. Right now following the NCS lead, 15, sportsman and skyray are usually glow-electric combined. Some people at local contests combine other various events like nostalgia and current carrier events, I don't see it as a big problem since 15 and skyray there is a speed limit, attainable by either, and slow is flying skill.  And in sportsman most people don't go real fast and real slow, so again not a big deal.

You don't see it as big deal that it's a major challenge to do 70 MPH with a 15 and still get it to idle?
That's why YOU gave up on trying to run a 15 and changed to rules in the event YOU run so you can use an electric motor of UNLIMITED size.

I still fly 15 because I already have the planes.  I would never have built one if electrics were included when I started.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4205
Re: What If
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 07:14:38 AM »
There is no need to sugar-coat this.  I built two good 15 Carrier models in accordance with the rules.
 
Even though I had a lot of experience with FAI Combat & Goodyear racing and I had several 15's to work with, it was a challenge to do 70 MPH and still have any low speed at all.  The engines that easily did 70 MPH cruised around at 30 on low speed.  When I tried to get the nose up the plane just did a wingover.  By the time I got the plane rigged to do a 20 MPH low it was marginal to go 70.

At contests I usually came in 1st or 2nd place with scores very close to others with the same problems as me.   John Vlna couldn't even come close to being competitive.

So he changed the rules so he can win an event that he runs with a dentist drill that can turn 40,000 with a left-handed prop, dead-stop to slow down, and never stall.

He could have just started an "electric-on-52' lines" event and not insulted reality by conjuring up the senseless term electric 15.

Maybe he can type his equality gibberish, but he sure couldn't say it with a straight face or under oath.
Paul Smith

Offline JoeJust

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: What If
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2017, 06:53:37 PM »
OK GUYS!!! LET'S NOT GO ANY FURTHER WITH THIS TYPE OF ATTACK!!!  Personal attacks are not allowed as long as I'm the moderator here.  Differences of oppion are learning tools and must be kept within the boundaries of being fair.
With that being said, I think it is time to do what NY City suggested some years ago when trying to solve heir traffic problems.  The quote goes something like this....... We should pick a date. At noon on that day all cars buses and rucks are to leave the city!  Then we have the entire scene repaved and new rules put into effect. Then we start all over gain working to make sensible changes."  Perhaps it is time before it is too late to stop the arguments and shut every thing down and make a set of new rules that will please most Carrier fans.  With that the annual NCS meeting is the worst place to do so. Let's get a new set of officers, get the bulletin going again and let the membership vote on what is needed in any changes.
Joe

(Anyone want to bet on this idea?) PM me
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline john vlna

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1194
Re: What If
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 08:00:23 PM »
Ok Joe
You my have to png me

Paul you re full of ----. I don' t make the rules and seldom take a score at Brodak's. Hate electric all you want. They exist.

Offline john e. holliday

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 18437
Re: What If
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 08:09:06 PM »
I apologize fellows for starting this.  The administrator has my permission to lock it or get rid of it all together.    D>K
I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530

Online eric david conley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 441
Re: What If
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 08:35:01 PM »
     PM you? Throw a hand grenade over the fence and run? Paul Smith and you Joe have no business shooting your mouths off and then saying things like PM me. You said it here and the ansewers should be here also. Yes, if you want to change things then by all means go to the NCS meeting at the NATs and voice your opinions. But then you haven't flow carrier at the NATS in many years and Paul has been absent the last couple years also. And you guys think you no better? All you know is what "you" think you know and having not been a competitor in navy carrier and bad mouthing it every chance you get for the last 25+years I no longer think you are in a position to do anything with carrier competition.
Eric

Offline Mike Anderson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: What If
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2017, 06:16:41 AM »
I apologize fellows for starting this.  The administrator has my permission to lock it or get rid of it all together.    D>K

I vote for the second option. 
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline JoeJust

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: What If
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2017, 09:17:50 AM »
Well Eric, you seem to have a problem with me. Fine!  When I was Prez of the NCS we had a mailing address of well over 100 people, mostly Carrier people. now we don't even have 50 members.  Something is wrong!  Having a meeting at Muncie where less than 70 % of NCS members attend  is not how things get changed for the better or the worse. On top of that, the general public doesn't hear about free membership to the NCS until this past month, almost a year since its approval by the few NCS members making the rule. So, as I sit here at 80 I realize I am fighting a loosing battle. My body is wearing out, I frequently fall, and each time the fall causes me to loose some physical activity, It might be the last year I will be able physically  to fly. Yes, I have not attended an AMA Nats for some time. That dose not mean I have abandoned Carrier. Since my last Nats I have invested several thousands of my money in building beginner Carrier planes and promoting this great portion  of our great hobby. I was able to break even.  My reputation here and abroad remains pretty good. More than likely I will not be around for he 2018 Nats or any other carrier event.  But I insist that I have the right to offer not only my opinion, but the opinion of other Carrier people, some of which just happen to be Nats top competitors. Want their names Eric? No can do and follow the unwritten NCS rule of not giving out names, or any other info. So Eric, when I am gone and you and a few are left flying carrier please turn out the lights when you leave!
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Ken Burdick

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
Re: What If
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2017, 11:23:06 AM »
Wow, Geezers on parade. Everyone gets a copy of Grumpy Old Men to go with the airplanes that fly on string.

K

Online eric david conley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 441
Re: What If
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2017, 01:27:28 PM »
     Well you claim to know more about the NCS because you know people and that's good. Cant name any of those people because of the NCS "Unwritten Law" of "not giving out names or any other info". Oh give me a break Joe. Do you have the right to offer "your" opinion, of course you do. I question your right to offer the opinion of other Carrier people, some of which just happen to be Nats top competitors along with your carrier committee members that you cant name. I think the best thing to do at this time is as the originator of this subject said, "get rid of it altogether".
Eric

Offline JoeJust

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: What If
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2017, 03:17:57 PM »
Well Eric, I can't give out the names for two reasons. first, they don't want to handle the crap that comes their way when they offer their opinions on the state of Carrier.  The other reason is because I am not privy to do so. I mean after all, it has been 8 years that I have tried to get a mailing address for the members of the NCS, only to be told that these names are not to be given out because of some threat of computer hacking or some such stuff.
Now Eric, I have always treated you well, including your willingness to have some of your ideas printed in the now demised CLW. I think you are indeed one of the top competitors in Carrier. Perhaps you and I just might grow to like each oher. My offerings have been well accepted, but my main thrust is that the Nats is not the only place where Carrier is flown. In over 200 Profile kits that I built two, maybe three have been entered in Muncie. Many others have been entered in the U.S. and Europe. Most have been flown by guys that simply don't want to compete.  There is a large number of CL types that just like to fly fast then slow and then do whatever they want.  All I am trying to do since 1984 is to promote the Carrier hobby to that and other groups and to heck with the Nats.
OK Eric, you win!  Here is my last offer for you and others to consider.

1....Leave the Nats alone. It is loved by a very competitive dozen or so.  Don't change a thing. (The AMA is likely to do that for you)

2....Promote the hell out of the NCS and flying with throttle control. Perhaps you might like that job for yourself, or another talented person

3... Tell Joe Just to go fishng and get the heck out of the Carrier scene.

Joe,
 older than dirt, on his last leg (lost half of the right one  in 1984), stupid and otherwise senile!

"Write no more Cladius, write no more"


I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
Re: What If
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2017, 05:54:44 PM »
OK, I'll make you a deal...

Instead of just offering opinions, or criticism, why don't Joe and Doc form up a little task group and craft a set of rules for the way you think Navy Carrier should be flown. I assume you have some concrete thoughts. Why not use NW Sport 40 as a starting point. I mean this sincerely.

Navy Carrier was originally set up to replicate carrier based Naval Aviation with scale based models and test the modeler's skills in the areas of high speed pursuit, low speed maneuverability, and the structural integrity to withstand an arrested landing on a simulated carrier deck. That shouldn't change but everything else is up for grabs.

Now, I am not proposing a new event. The purpose of this exercise is to test market the concepts. If it were to work and generate sufficient interest, then there might be a way to work the important elements into our events. Remember, a lot of our favorites started out at the local or regional level.

Now for the deal part. If you guys buy into this and make something happen I will run it at both of the Dayton events this year.

Better yet, I will even run it as an auxiliary event on Thursday at the NATS with FREE entry. It will be just for bragging rights, unless you come up with some booty, but we could see if your ideas have merit. Sometimes you need to gently poke the old dog and I have seen that a new challenge wakes up everybody.

You know, we can't promote and showcase our interest if all people see is derision and conflict. This has to end.

Work with me, please!
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline john vlna

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1194
Re: What If
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2017, 06:44:15 PM »
Good ideas Bob


PS I personally like hanging, to me it is more fun than the old way. I have flown nostalgia under the old rule enough to understand the difference, and I like hanging even if it isn't realistic.

John

Offline JoeJust

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: What If
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2017, 08:02:19 AM »
Bob, your on!  However I can see no advantage to our growth problem by even thinking of adding something to an already heavy schedule of Carrier activity at the Nats.  Your and others local ideas has great merit.  First things first of course and I hope you can accept the dely.  I think it will take all of the rest of the year and part of the next to put into effect what I have in mind.  Give me a week or so and I will publish here not just my ideas, but of the "Mystic" unknown others as swell.  Perhaps when we have a new set of officers of the NCS there may well be a likely voting by the membership to adapt or deny any new ideas.
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place



Sorry, this topic is locked. Only admins and moderators can reply.
Tags: