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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Carrier => Topic started by: Tom Luciano on January 26, 2007, 11:42:54 AM
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Gentlemen,
I like to hear some thoughts on today's designs for a competitive airplane in all classes. I have MO-1 designs from Don Gerber. These designs were his 1988 versions and I also have his 88 profile guardian which he said was better then his MO-1. I have a class I MO-1 all framed from 89 with OS 40vr-p, wondering if this is worth finishing? Also have a 28" guardian all framed for class I ,maybe complete that one for nostalgia? Stephen Dinerman, thats a name I recognize from way back when we use to have our Memorial Day Meet in Union, I was a very young judge at the time. Hope to hear some input on this because I do not want to spend the time on these designs if i can't be competitive on a high level.
Thanks,
Tom
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Tom,
I took a few minutes and put together the results for Nats this year and the NCS top twenty. I am sure about the Nats as we took very good notes of what was flown. The NCS top twenty is what I remember and should be pretty accurate but I can't be 100% sure. As far as what designs are used (what vintage for each model) I can only attest to my plane which is a Bill Calkins designed Vampire. Others in Profile I am somewhat sure about are: Bill Bischof and Dale Gleason usually fly the "Texas" MO-1, with foam wings. Rons Guardian I don't know about, but its a very pretty model. Eric Conley's ME-109 is his own design. Randy Bushes plane is an older design, not sure from where.
Not sure if this will help you but its some current data.
Here's the table I put together:
NATS 2006 Scores
Class I Airplane Motor Points
Marc Warwashana MO-1 MVVS 40 414.9
Ron Duly MO-1 K&B 40 382.4
Pete Mazur MO-1 Tune Hill 346.8
Dale Gleason MO-1 K&B 40 327.9
John Vlna MO-1 Wiley 319.4
Richard Perry MO-1 OS 40 276.8
Class II
Marc Warwashana MO-1 Rossi 65 396.4
Dale Gleason MO-1 OS 65 394.6
Ron Duly MO-1 Jett RC 50 383.5
Gary Hull SBD OS 45 332.8
Art Johnson MO-1 Rossi 60 177.9
Profile
Ron Duly Guardian Nelson 281.2
Marc Warwashana MO-1 Nelson 277.4
Melvin Schuette MO-1 Nelson 275.5
Dale Gleason MO-1 Wiley 244.1
Gary Hull Brewster TT Pro 227.1
Art Johnson Guardian K&B 5.8 218.1
John Vlna Ki-76 Nelson 108.4
Bob Frogner Vampire Nelson 97.8
Pete Mazur MO-1 Tune Hill 97.7
Richard Perry MO-1 Nelson 95.9
NCS Top Twenty
Profile
Pete Mazur MO-1 367.2
Eric Conley ME 109 362.48
Jim Schneider MO-1 337.31
Bob Frogner Vampire 336.77
Randy Bush Bearcat 320.5
Class I
Eric Conley MO-1 439.17
Marc Warwashana MO-1 434.91
Jim Schneider MO-1 417.64
Bill Bischof MO-1 402.8
Ron Duly MO-1 382.4
Class II
Pete Mazur MO-1 488.3
Eric Conley MO-1 438.61
Jim Schneider MO-1 428.08
Bill Bischof MO-1 411.5
Marc Warwashana MO-1 396.4
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Just out of curiosity, why does the MO-1 dominate the event? Is it because the high wing makes it more stable during the low speed portion of the flight?
cheers,
Ken
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I am not an expert but I have a few thoughts on why the MO-1 is so dominant (especially in class I and II). First, there are a number of designs that have been perfected by many years of flying. Some think the high wing is important and the proportions of the plane seem to work well. Remember in Class I and II you have to be within 5% of the original dimensions to get the 100 scale points. Second, keeping the 5% rule in mind, it takes a lot of research and careful design to meet the scale requirements. Since MO-1's are known to work well its just easier to use a proven design. The guys from Texas have developed a foam wing that is quick and easy to build so most of them use that. One other additional point is that the landing gear must be positioned as on the actual plane. The way the gear is on the Mo-1 with the gear coming out of the fuselage its easy to build and is strong. Planes with gear that comes out of the wings need extra bracing in the wing to take the hard carrier landings and that adds weight.
You can see in profile there is a larger variety of planes used and designs other than MO-1s can be successful. Ron Duly's Guardian is a good example. Bill Calkins Vampire is also very different and flies extremely well when trimmed properly. Eric Conley has built a number of different planes that do extremely well, Seafire, ME 109 and most recently a very nice Cosair. The scale factor is much more lenient and you just have to have the overall shape and lines of the original plane, so you can be adjust the proportions somewhat and still get the bonus points.
Just my observations.
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Thanks BFrog,for the info and insight and your points are well taken. Actually, that raises another question "Weight", the class I ship I referred to seems to be heavy. What range are the ships coming in at these days?
Tom
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Ya know Tom, just about anything is competitive if you practise with it and get the reliability up. To be really competitive at a high level you need to be under 19 sec on the high end and over 4 min 30 sec on the low. But that is if all your competition is up and going as planned. If the competition is having a bad day you can be #1 with less than a stellar flight. So build what you have ,get working every time up, and go for it.
I think some of us fly just to fly and have the comradery of the other old geeks the still flying our toys on strings, I know I do. To heck with the trophies and other awards.
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I agree with Skyshark, get in the air and practice. Set up and getting things to work smoothly and the same each flight is very important. The more fuel you burn the more you learn.
I looked at the weights in the Nats results and here's the general trend.
Profile - Most are right at 2.9 lbs.
Class I - I was somewhat surprised in that they are not much heavier than profile. Most are right around 3.0 lbs, range was about 3 to 3.3
Class II - A little bit more variation but in the range of 3.3 to 3.5 lbs with some a bit higher and some a bit lower. Whats interesting is that Dale Gleason had one of the heavier planes, 3.8 lbs, and had the best high speed at 97mph.
If you can get into the low 19s for high and well over 4 min high your right in there. Of course conditions can also contribute a lot. No wind to windy. Last year at Nats it was very windy for profile day and the scores were in the high 200's. Normally they should have been in the 300s. For Class I and II there was very little wind and that made it difficult to post really good scores. A light, consistant wind is preferred. You should practice in all conditions to be prepared.
Just get out there and fly a lot!!!!! That's the fun of it.
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for the input. At the least now, I have some numbers to work with. I threw the class I on the scale with the engine, and tank, less the rest of the hardware and I'm hovering right around 2lbs. looks to be I'll be in that 3lb. range, so I think we'll move on with it. The goal is to have three planes ready for the season which should be a little on the tough side with 4 kids under 12. Going with the Nelson in profile ,class II? My father has his old Rossi .60 said he used to get really consistent runs with it but Carrier was a different animal then. I'm open to suggestion always, as I really do appreciate the help.
thanks again,
TOM
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tom it is good to know someone still remembers me.
lets talk about dons last carrier designs.i built the guardian from his plans.i had a k&b 5.8 in mine.it had stunt flaps on it.it flew pretty good. it would be good local but not get mere a record.we used the 36 in mo1 with the solid wing .i feel that this design would still be competitive nationally.i bought Dons 42 inch mo1 and put my ops 65 in it.i flew it once it did 16.9 in high and 4 min.low.i hung it up and never flew it again.the only mod i would make on the mo1s is to change the line slider to the on1 designed by bill bishoff that is in the latest addition of control line world.i would also suggest that you read my article on the kingfisher in the Oct 1987 flying models mag. find some people in your aria that are still flying carrier in your aria.if you are still living in Union i sugust you get hold of brian silversmith or ton schaffer at middlesex.
stephen dinerman
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Thanks Steve,
I used to fly a lot of R/C with Tom Schaefer, I should be able too hunt him down. Brian I also remember him from our Memorial Day meet I think I'll shoot over to Middlesex on a Sunday and see who's around.I recall one year it started pouring down rain Brian fired up his Class II guardian put it on the deck went to tweak the needle and his feet came right out from under him. Staring him right in the face was a screaming Rossi .65, scary moment. Got to get my hands on that article from Bischoff.
Tom
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Tom Its kind of snowy so maybe you might want to come to the next Middlesex modeler club meeting which will be Thursday Feb.8 at 7:30 in the cafeteria of Middlesex High school on Rt28. Brian is president and Tom usually makes all the club meetings, probably a better chance of catching one of them there. The club has a new fenced in paved circle with everything marked out for racing and carrier. The carrier deck is bright yellow and real easy to see.There are few us Union Modelers that are in the club and most club members went to the memorial day contest.The club has 2 carrier contest scheduled for May and October not counting racing and stunt and Combat contest scheduled for the summer. Hope to see you at the meeting. DenW
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Dennis,
I'll be shooting for the May contest. This weeks meeting, I have a commitment, but I will get there at some point.
Thanks,
Tom
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Tom
The meetings are on the second thursday of the month and at the High school so you have a couple meeting before the contest. DenW