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Author Topic: Rules change discussions  (Read 647 times)

Online Paul Smith

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Rules change discussions
« on: May 24, 2023, 11:14:05 AM »
This is the rules change season and the biannual chance to state your opinions.

Maybe somebody could remind the readers just who the actual voters are.  It doesn't seem to be posted anyplace I can find.

It used to be the Control Line Contest Board (CLCB) who were effectively appointed for life by the AMA District VP's.  Now they are appointed by the Special Interest Groups (SIG's) such as NCS, MACA, PAMPA, etc.

I know who mine is.  I'm quite sure that he will never change anything. 
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Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2023, 11:59:07 AM »
Quote from: Paul Smith on May 24, 2023, 11:14:05 AM
This is the rules change season and the biannual chance to state your opinions.

Maybe somebody could remind the readers just who the actual voters are.  It doesn't seem to be posted anyplace I can find.

It used to be the Control Line Contest Board (CLCB) who were effectively appointed for life by the AMA District VP's.  Now they are appointed by the Special Interest Groups (SIG's) such as NCS, MACA, PAMPA, etc.

I know who mine is.  I'm quite sure that he will never change anything.

Point taken...

I don't have an idea who is on the CLCB, SIG, nor who my representative is, and certainly have no clue who anybody else on the board is, or how to make contact with my representative. I find that lack of information to be the biggest hurdle for someone getting into carrier, even with my past carrier experience I find getting information (all forms of it) related to Navy Carrier to be a big challenge....how do we expect to entice new competitors if they can't find the information needed easily...???

The CLCB Members names, and districts they represent needs to be posted... #^
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2023, 12:22:40 PM »
Bob Heywood is active in NCS.  I expect that he will weigh in with the names today.

I know that Mark Warwashana is my representative in AMA District 7.
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Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2023, 12:42:22 PM »
After a bit of searching, the CLCB:

Name AMA district CLNC24_01 CLNC24-02
Vacant I
Vacant III
Bob Heywood III Approve Approve
Everett Shoemaker IV Approve Approve
H. David Wallick V DNV DNV
Peter O. Mazur VI Approve Approve
Marc Warwashana VII Deny Deny
Richard L Perry VIII Approve Approve
Melvin Schuette IX Deny Deny
Burton Brokaw X Approve Approve
Mike Potter XI Approve Approve
RESULTS APPROVED APPROVED
All approved proposals move on to the Intermediate Vote
DNV = Did Not Vote

Looks like most approved the initial voting on both proposals. I still can't find the representatives for SIG Navy Carrier.

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Online Paul Smith

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2023, 01:00:34 PM »
I know that Dave Wallick is quite unhealthy.  Somebody in his district (Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Puerto Rico, South Carolina, Tennessee, USVI) should offer to replace him.

Vis a vis the slider: 
My objection is not based on the challenge of making one.  It is based on the ongoing judgement call by the "hanging judge" who can reduce the low speed score to zero and terminate the flight if he feels a rule has been broken.  He can also help somebody set a record if he wishes. 

In a similar situation a Stunt judge can saw "34"instead of "36".  A Scale judge can give "7" rather than "9" for an option.  The hanging judge can either shoot you in the head or not.

OK, I have an MO-1 with an 8-ounce tank.  I can stop, hover, back up and go vertical.  So now the challenge is about where the hanging judge of today draws the line.  I'd rather just fly slow with fixed leadouts.

It's interesting that the two guys who dominate The Nats voted FOR the changes.  I guess they see the wisdom of keeping the game alive.
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Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2023, 01:17:30 PM »
Quote from: Paul Smith on May 24, 2023, 01:00:34 PM
I know that Dave Wallick is quote unhealthy.  Somebody in his district should offer to replace him.

Vis a vis the slider: 
My objection is not based on the challenge of making one.  It is based on the ongoing judgement call by the "hanging judge" who can reduce the low speed score to zero and terminate the flight if he feels a rule has been broken.  He can also help somebody set a record if he wishes. 

In a similar situation a Stunt judge can saw "34"instead of "36".  A Scale judge can give "7" rather than "9" for an option.  The hanging judge can either shoot you in the head or not.

OK, I have an MO-1 with an 8-ounce tank.  I can stop, hover, back up and go vertical.  So now the challenge is about where the hanging judge of today draws the line.  I'd rather just fly slow with fixed leadouts.

The slider is easy to make, the challenge of Low Speed hanging is not as easy, why it is a 'Challenge' to master, however; it can be done, believe me. It takes trimming a plane precisely, and practice. Once you mastered trimming the model, pinpointing 55-58 degress of hanging, is not as difficult as you think, no need to push 60 degrees, stay on the safe side 2-4 degrees under. Like anything else in life; you need to put forth the effort to reap the rewards, carrier is NO different.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2023, 07:02:51 AM by Paul Smith »
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Offline BillLee

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2023, 01:31:44 PM »
Just some basic information.

There is no 'CLCB' any more, since something like 20+/- years ago when we recognized that the various CL events could not be effectively managed by a single person per district. At that time, the CLCB was broken into a Contest Board for each discipline. E.g. the CL Carrier Contest Board that is the subject of this thread.

To correct some misconceptions, the members of the Contest Boards are NOT appointed by the Special Interest Groups, but ARE appointed by the AMA District Vice President. For reference I suggest reading the actual AMA document: https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Contest%20Board%20Procedures%202019.pdf In there it says

Quote
Member Appointment
The vice presidents of the AMA districts appoint the individual members, and the president of
the AMA appoints the chairperson. Vice presidents are encouraged to make maximum use of the
AMA Special Interest Groups (SIGs) when seeking qualified Contest Board members.

Regards,

Bill Lee
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Bill Lee
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Offline bdt-m

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2023, 07:42:29 PM »
Name AMA district CLNC24_01 CLNC24-02
Vacant I
Vacant III
Bob Heywood III Approve Approve
Everett Shoemaker IV Approve Approve
H. David Wallick V DNV DNV
Peter O. Mazur VI Approve Approve
Marc Warwashana VII Deny Deny
Richard L Perry VIII Approve Approve
Melvin Schuette IX Deny Deny
Burton Brokaw X Approve Approve
Mike Potter XI Approve Approve
RESULTS APPROVED APPROVED
All approved proposals move on to the Intermediate Vote
DNV = Did Not Vote

In any rule cycle, when considering making changes the all SIG representatives need to vote IMO. The two vacancies, I & III need to be filled. Dave Wallick was a fierce competitor back in the day, I wish him all the best, however; if Dave can't complete the duty of SIG voting, then a new appointment should be made.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2023, 08:16:56 PM »
District I and II are vacant. I cover District III. The reason I & II are vacant is because no one is flying Navy Carrier there.

As far as the current vote, this is only a preliminary step. The board felt it would be worthwhile to keep the proposals active so there could be more discussion and maybe some cross proposals.

You each have the opportunity to comment to your District member. This back & forth on Stunthangar is meaningless.
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"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline BillLee

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2023, 10:57:51 PM »
Quote from: bdt-m on May 24, 2023, 07:42:29 PM
....

In any rule cycle, when considering making changes the all SIG representatives need to vote IMO. The two vacancies, I & III need to be filled. Dave Wallick was a fierce competitor back in the day, I wish him all the best, however; if Dave can't complete the duty of SIG voting, then a new appointment should be made.

Please re-read my post above. Once again: a "Contest Board"  Is not a "SIG".
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Bill Lee
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2023, 09:50:41 AM »
Quote from: Paul Smith on May 24, 2023, 11:14:05 AM
This is the rules change season and the biannual chance to state your opinions.

Maybe somebody could remind the readers just who the actual voters are.  It doesn't seem to be posted anyplace I can find.

It used to be the Control Line Contest Board (CLCB) who were effectively appointed for life by the AMA District VP's.  Now they are appointed by the Special Interest Groups (SIG's) such as NCS, MACA, PAMPA, etc.


The Contest Boards are posted on the AMA website.  You need to log in to the AMA website to get to the list of contest boards.

On the AMA website:

Log In
Events
Contest Board Members
 
Also, the Contest Board Procedures are shown there

As Bill Lee explained above, the CB members are appointed by the respective AMA Vice President for each district.  (In the case of the Aerobatics Contest Board, the Board Chairman will recommend to the AMA VP a name recommended by the PAMPA President when a vacancy appears on the Board, but that is not a requirement of the AMA.  In my experience, it appears that the respective AMA VP's welcome the recommendations that come from the Special Interest group. )

In other words, the Contest Boards are NOT made up by the special interest groups.  The special interest groups might have some input to the AMA District VP's, but the Board members are selected by the AMA Vice Presidents.  The Contest Boards and their activities are governed by the AMA, not by the Special Interest Groups.

Also, it needs to be noted that the CB Procedures calendar is out of date because of the delay in the "normal" change cycle resulting from Covid.  The closing date for proposals in this rules change cycle was last December, 2022.  The period for new proposals in this change cycle is now closed.  Amendments can now be made to those proposals that passed the initial vote a month or so ago.  Final vote on proposals, as amended will be this coming November/December.

Keith
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2023, 11:44:10 AM »
Thank you for the explanation.

In my district, at least, we have had the same Contest Board representatives through several AMA VP's.  They have been there so long that I never knew exactly how they got there.
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Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2023, 12:10:52 PM »
Quote from: Bob Heywood on May 24, 2023, 08:16:56 PM
District I and II are vacant. I cover District III. The reason I & II are vacant is because no one is flying Navy Carrier there.

As far as the current vote, this is only a preliminary step. The board felt it would be worthwhile to keep the proposals active so there could be more discussion and maybe some cross proposals.

You each have the opportunity to comment to your District member. This back & forth on Stunthangar is meaningless.

As an FYI the AMA website list District I & III as vacant, and D. Wallick as DNV. I understand the web error and should read I & II as vacant. I would hope a solution could be found for the three districts that are not casting a vote.... this amounts to 30% of the possible votes not being cast. Seems you would want 100% of all districts voting.
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Rules change discussions
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2023, 05:58:10 PM »
Sadly I do not think rule changes will accomplish anything. The number of CL flyers is going down, not up. For example my club, started in the late 40’s was dissolved last year. The 4 or 5 of us that fly CL are now part of a RC club with about 130 members, and most of us also have RC planes.
I only know of six carrier flyers is my district (IV), and as Bob points out two districts have zero.
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