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Author Topic: Mystery Engine and plane  (Read 3332 times)

Offline Mike Anderson

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Mystery Engine and plane
« on: November 18, 2013, 01:09:53 PM »
I wonder if anyone recognizes this engine and/or plane -- this is posted in a "For Sale" ad on RCGroups.  This is the only info in the ad ...

"Rare roselli and frey engine C/L SIZE 44

In great shape roselli and frey engine with rc adjustable throttle and baffle on the exhaust.125.00
"

I remember hearing briefly of an engine with that name or something like it.  The pictures look like the Fox .36 Carrier Special with a Perry Carb (or could be a TWA, but I think the sandcast case looks more 'Fox'y).

The numbers near the tail look like (?)4474.  Maybe someone recognizes the plane.

I'm just curious - I'm not interested in buying the engine.  But maybe someone would have some more info on 'Roselli and Frey'. 
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2013, 02:53:48 PM »
Looks to me like it could be the predecessor to the (unsuccessful?) Fox 36 rear exhaust engine.  From what I've read it's Roselle and Fry or RAF.  The Fox version has a normal Fox type drive washer and carb, not to say the parts couldn't have been changed.  I've seen pics of the Fox 36 RX with and without the Fox logo cast in the case.  Also I'd bet that 44 on the lug has nothing to do with displacement, more likely a serial number.  Isn't the limit for profile carrier .36?

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2013, 03:27:10 PM »
I agree. The prop driver looks like a K&B baffle piston 35 part, or actually the whole front end assembly might be K&B. The RAF (Roselle and Fry) engines were either being developed with Fox finances, or Fox bought out the ill-fated project. The RAF engines looked like they were trying to be TWA copies, but the TWA's I've seen had better looking castings than RAF's or Foxes. Don't know about the "44", but if you have the engine in hand it's easy enough to measure the bore and stroke.

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2013, 03:30:40 PM »
Now that you mention it, that prop driver is very reminiscent of the K&B .40's of that period - the TWA built by Glen Dye is based on K&B parts and had an exhaust baffle, which the Fox did not.  If the RAF is based on the same parts as the TWA, then that explains much.  Agree that the 44 is probably a serial number.  Yes, profile carrier has always been .36 cu.in.  This seller obviously knows nothing about the Navy Carrier event.  Nor what he has for an engine.  Like I said, just curious.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2013, 06:06:15 PM »
I agree. The prop driver looks like a K&B baffle piston 35 part, or actually the whole front end assembly might be K&B.

Good call, the gussets etc on the front end do look very K&B. 

Offline BillLee

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2013, 07:04:53 PM »
Here's a Fox version after acquisition of RAF. Along side a K&B 35 plain bearing (Series 75? CRS) Both plain bearing front ends and I seem to recall measuring and found that the K&B front end would interchange to the Fox. (That may not be true, it's been 30+ years!)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 01:29:54 AM by BillLee »
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2013, 10:38:53 PM »
Something else I just remembered/noticed/ realized. The Fox case casting has been milled off such that there is no boost port on the front side of the case. The mystery engine appears to have a boost port, or at least provision for one. The mystery engine also has a thinner back plate than the Fox.

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2013, 05:14:23 AM »
Interesting discussion. I'll try to get Bob Heywood to chime in. As I rember vaguely Bob had som experience with RAF engines.
Thanks
Wayne
Wayne Buran
Medina, Ohio
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USAF Veteran 35 TAC GP/ 6236 CSG, DonMuang RTAFB, Bangkok, Thailand 65-66 North Coast Controliners   "A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well!

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2013, 06:39:33 AM »
In the late 1960's Jerry Roselle and Jack Frye, members of the Dayton Buzzin' Buzzards Model Airplane Club, developed a bar stock .65 piped engine for "D" Speed. They set some records just shy of 200 mph. They also did a "B" but it wasn't as successful.

Jack pushed the idea to commercialize their success. Thus RAF, Roselle and Frye, was established to make high performance engines. Their first product was a .40 in order to capitalize on the popularity of R/C F1 Pylon racing. They got another Buzzards club member to make the match plates for the case and managed to get some castings. Bill Keller became involved in the development process.

Along the way, Jack did make other engines from the basic .40 case. He was sort of a Henry Nelson in that regard. Thus, the carrier motor.

The RAF project never really got any traction. The engines simply never performed well enough to compete. Somewhere along the way Jack managed to get some development money from Duke Fox. Eventually, Duke pulled the plug and took RAF's assets. There were enough cases to make some engines that were sold under the Fox brand.

In addition to C/L Speed, Jack was part of the Frye Brothers drag racing team that ran a twin engine rail dragster. Jack passed away a number of years ago.

Both Jerry and Jack helped me get a start in Speed flying. Jerry is still living in Vandalia, OH and usually makes an appearance at the annual Cold Cash Speed Bash.

As Wayne indicated I have owned a couple of RAF engines. Bill Keller and I got the "B" Speed plane and I also had a development .65 with a cast case and Super Tigre front and rear ends. The "B" eventually went to a collector in France and the .65 went to another collector.

Hope this helps.

"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2013, 06:59:05 AM »
Thanks for filling in some of the blanks -- I googled Roselle & Fry and found some pix of their pylon .40.  It was a rear-rotor, rear exhaust that looks more like the Fox in Bill's pic than the engine in the original post.  The story surrounding it kind of picks up where Fox entered the picture and then goes on to list some of the variations of the Fox .36 RX.  I've have one like Bill's which we never got to run very well, but I dug it out and saw immediately that there was only a passing resemblance to the engine in the original post. I'm quite sure that the original post 'For Sale' ad is actually a TWA probably built by Glen Dye.  Paul Kegel has been flying one for many years on a Profile, and that is probably why I kind of did a double take when I first saw the ad for a "Roselli and Frey".

So who's plane is it?     LL~
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2013, 09:57:55 AM »
Mike, Ilooked for the ad. I assume someone grabbed it.? Ah yes, another page out of the classic carrier age. Love it!
Wayne
Wayne Buran
Medina, Ohio
AMA 14986 CD
USAF Veteran 35 TAC GP/ 6236 CSG, DonMuang RTAFB, Bangkok, Thailand 65-66 North Coast Controliners   "A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well!

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2013, 11:02:04 AM »
No it's still there:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2038270

and has had no responses yet.  The seller is somewhere in Indiana.  That's why I was hoping someone from your area might recognize the plane.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Trostle

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Re: Mystery Engine and plane
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 11:26:40 PM »
I cannot add much to what Bob Heywood explained above.  I was in Dayton when Roselle and Frye decided to produce various versions of their speed engines and was a bit involved with some of those activities.  Their main commercial endeavor was to produce engines for the RC pylon racers.  I worked on several pylon ships that were test beds for those racing engines with a top pylon pilot there in Dayton to fly them.  To make a long story short, Roselle backed out of the endeavor, Fox got financially involved, the engines would perform but were not consistent and Fox took the equipment and parts to Arkansas and marketed several versions based on the RAF cases.

While Jack Frye was working on these engines, he produced one .40 with timing for stunt for me to put in an airplane.  This was in 1972.  At the time, it was one of the few rear exhaust stunt .40's in existence.  Jack made a muffler for this so it could be completely enclosed in the nose.  The muffler made the engine run quiet and actually, the engine gained as much as 200 rpm when coupled with that muffler.  That airplane/engine placed 10th at the 72 Nats.  The shaft broke sometime later and efforts to get another shaft set up never materialized.

Jack Frye did make up some drawings of each of the engines planned for production.  In addition to the racing .40 with rear exhaust, rear intake, there was the stunt 40 with the front intake, a .36 for profile carrier with a front intake, a .60 for speed. and others.  Plans were to produce engines for pattern RC, Racing RC, speed, carrier, rat racing, stunt, and combat. a .15 was planned. There was an advertisement for these engines that appeared at least once in Model Airplane News, Jul 73.  These were based on the RAF record setting B and C speed jobs.  It is unfortunate that the potential of these engines never materialized.

Keith


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