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Author Topic: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier  (Read 1617 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« on: August 23, 2017, 07:24:23 AM »
My Shark 25 racer served me well from 2010 until now.  The plane survived over 5000 laps of racing, including four 100-milers without a failure of landing gear, fuel tank, engine mounts or fuel shutoff.   This year the club discontinued the event.  I broke off the outboard wing in a fun-flying crash on a weedy field.

It looked good when it was new, but most people have seen it with several layers of patch work.
Paul Smith


Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 07:33:37 AM »
The plan here is a zero-cost re-purposing.  The RC engine is no problem.  Who doesn't have a stash of OS throttles pulled of engines for racing & stunt? 
I have converted three 2-line planes to throttle control, retrofitted two from 3-line to 2.4 and built two all-new 2.4 throttle control models.

I count the battery, receiver and servos as "free" since I bought a supply in bulk off Ebay.

The steps are:  install battery, remove racing equipment, move leadouts back, clean off old covering, reattach wing, line up throttle servo, make receiver box, make new landing gear, recover & paint, install hook system.

I went with the four AAA throwaway batteries.  I use a box that includes the switch.   No need to buy connectors.  Use the wires from broken or fouled servos.  Servos are the new glow plugs.  The weight comes out right for tip weight.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2017, 07:08:04 AM »
At this point the wing is back on and the landing gear, tank and old covering are off.
It's time to give the airframe a rest and bench run some throttled engines. 

Yesterday was spent freeing up some stuck throttles that hadn't been run in decades.  Four out of four worked OK on the bench.

The test run of the 2.4 system went OK.

The leadouts were moved aft for Carrier vs Racing and more clearance was hogged-out for more sweep in the future.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 04:48:19 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 02:33:39 PM »
This little job has dragged out to a snail's pace.  The patch job gradually evolved into a complete strip & repaint. 

The landing gear has gone from a racing gear to tandem like the U-2, B-47, B-52 and Harrier.  This won't qualify to the (lousy) 10 points, but it will look like a modern Navy carrier fighter.

I have stayed true to the NO NEW MONEY plan.  This is still a pure dust bin build.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 11:21:28 AM »
You should be able to make up those 10 points in flying.    H^^
I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 12:40:12 PM »
10 points !  I agree.

I would rather just write them off than push the limits with a light observation plane or a questionable subject.

I will present a model that looks more like a Navy fighter than several others that get the points.
Paul Smith

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 01:09:00 PM »
     Paul, have you written up some rules for the Sport Carrier event?
Eric

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 03:48:47 PM »
I'm thinking about it very hard.  A few things are already in hand:

AMA General & CL General Rules apply.  There will be NO reference to the 75-year-old Carrier rules.

There will be points for takeoff, high speed, low speed and landing.  There will be scoring caps on BOTH high & low speed.

We will use the Brodak deck.

Engines will include OS LA & FP 35's and 40's and any engine under 26 cubic inches.  All engines will sure their factory throttles.

No sliders & no left-handed engines.

There will be penalties for fouls, but no capital punishment.

I plan a couple of testing sessions before rolling out the rules.

Oh and finally, all the equipment you need will be available on today's market.


Paul Smith

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 06:36:26 AM »
Better be specific Paul. There are a lot of HOT .25's out there. eg. Go .25 and others.  TS

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2017, 07:29:56 AM »
I have nothing against hot 25's if they are available to everybody.   
It's the contestant's choice:  A sport 40 or a hot 25.  A 37.5% loss of displacement in exchange for a hotter engine.

While up in my dope booth I came across a ready-to-fly Fun Carrier plane.  This one was a 1986 Fox 35 Stunt Combat plane that I retrofitted with a Thunder Tiger 25RC.  It is, as you say, hot.  The Ariel was a really easy fix. It already had outdoor controls, so putting in the stacked bellcranks was a 5-minute job.

Compared to the olden days, workable throttled engines are readily available.   Today's RC 25's (and 40's) work properly with a minimum of fiddling.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 08:06:14 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Online bob whitney

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 08:36:35 AM »
what would be a Foul?
rad racer

Online Jim Roselle

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 09:26:29 AM »
 So if three people takeoff, hit the high speed and low speed caps, and nail the landing it results in a 3 way tie for first?. Instead of a low speed cap how about a no hang rule. The event becomes  competitive to more people and the possibility of a tie is greatly reduced.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 10:28:50 AM »
     A "No Hang Rule", how many times have I heard that. Well I've heard it a lot, almost more times than I have said that very phrase myself. I know as you throttle back and raise the nose of the plane to keep it flying level there is a place where the plane quits flying off the lift of the wing  and fly's more and more off the power of the engine. So does hang mean flying at the same altitude around the circle without the wing creating  any lift and can we measure this with accuracy, I would have to say no. I believe that is why we have the 60 degree, 30 degree, and any other variable degree of angle of attack to try to control the LS portion of the event. When you have a rule that sets a certain degree of pitch in the plane while it is flying around the circle during LS you need a way of identifying when the angle of pitch is exceeded, and that would be the inside  judge. As we all know (I hope by now) the inside judge is loved and hated by all with good reason, and they are harder to come by for just that reason.
     So the word "subjective" comes to mind. I thought the NWS40  would be a carrier event that there wouldn't have to be an inside judge so we could all stand outside the circle and enjoy watching the competitor fly his plane the best he could, not. So I think the ED or his appointed person should be able to stand outside of the circle and judge when a person is flying correctly during LS and his subjective judgement would be rule "Period". As long as there was no "kill point" and the competitor was just having points taken away when he exceeded the subjective judge's ding things should be OK. (Remember, should's can drive you crazy).
     Anyway, just a thought.
Eric

Online Jim Roselle

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2017, 10:44:23 AM »
So what about a rule that requires a down stop on the hook that places the hook in a vertical position when the model is st the prescribed "maximum angle"? Everyone's hook is checked at the beginning of the contest and judging outside the circle is much easier, just watch for the hook to past vertical.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2017, 10:45:01 AM »
what would be a Foul?

A foul is an offense that would trigger a zero score according to current rules.  Offenses are often allowed to slide due to the death penalty.
 
For example: During Low Speed, going vertical, stopping, backing up or touching the ground will get a one lap penalty per offense. 

There will be 25 points for a correct takeoff.  If you touch the ground (drag the hook in the grass) you only lose the 25 points and don't get a zero score. 
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2017, 10:53:14 AM »
So if three people takeoff, hit the high speed and low speed caps, and nail the landing it results in a 3 way tie for first?. Instead of a low speed cap how about a no hang rule. The event becomes  competitive to more people and the possibility of a tie is greatly reduced.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim

With caps of 75 MPH and 15 MPH it could indeed be possible to achieve a perfect score.  I doubt that this will happen in the absence of sliders, but (as said by Peter Venkman) anything is possible.  If two or more contestants do it, we will need a tie-breaker.

I will do some test flying before finalizing the rules.  I don't think doing 24 seconds high and 120 seconds low with the stated equipment is all that easy.  Maybe somebody could put something in the air and prove me wrong.

Capping high and leaving low open-ended definately shews the rules in favor of low. 
Capping BOTH ends forces the compromise that is essence of the event.






Paul Smith

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2017, 11:09:51 AM »
     75 mph HS will make the .25s much more competitive than than the OS 40FP competitors. The current HS in S40 is averaging in the mid to low 60s. How will you know what speed the LS flier is going, time each lap??
Eric

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2017, 11:47:33 AM »
Sliders are not needed. With speed caps, the planes are rigged (line guide position, tip weight, engine offset, and CG) for slow flight. Horsepower just pushes past the drag.

15 mph will be a relatively easy mark to hit.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2017, 12:21:17 PM »
    I'll say it again, "how will you know when your going 15 mph" ??
Eric

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2017, 12:36:54 PM »
    I'll say it again, "how will you know when your going 15 mph" ??

120 seconds (two minutes) for a half-mile (7 laps).

The same principle as High speed.  24 seconds per half-mile.  Manually operated stopwatches.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2017, 12:38:54 PM »
Sliders are not needed. With speed caps, the planes are rigged (line guide position, tip weight, engine offset, and CG) for slow flight. Horsepower just pushes past the drag.

15 mph will be a relatively easy mark to hit.

I've never seen it done with at plane that goes 75 high.  I would like to see to believe.  That being said, it's intended to be a challenge, not an impossibility.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 12:59:29 PM »
I've never seen it done with at plane that goes 75 high.  I would like to see to believe.  That being said, it's intended to be a challenge, not an impossibility.

But...You said in an earlier post that the high speed run would be done at max level flight speed. The launch and first couple of laps wouldn't be part of the equation. Is that still the case?
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2017, 01:43:33 PM »
A foul is an offense that would trigger a zero score according to current rules.  Offenses are often allowed to slide due to the death penalty.
 
For example: During Low Speed, going vertical, stopping, backing up or touching the ground will get a one lap penalty per offense. 

There will be 25 points for a correct takeoff.  If you touch the ground (drag the hook in the grass) you only lose the 25 points and don't get a zero score.

Paul these must be your rules for your fun carrier as AMA say the named fouls are automatic DQ of flight? ???
I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2017, 02:16:14 PM »
Correctomundo, Doc Holiday.

I will reference Brodak Fly In Rules, AMA General Rules & CL General Rules, but not the 1946 Carrier rules.  This event will be started on a clean sheet of e-paper.

Other than things like releasing the handle without a safety thong, there won't be a death penalty. 
I didn't say "automatic DQ".  But offenses during low speed (under the old rules) result in termination of flight, leaving high speed and scale points the only score.  Not exactly "automatic DQ", but pretty close to that.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2017, 08:12:32 PM »
The carrier stuff got onto the back burner behind air fighting at The Bean Field and Rouge Park, but it's still progressing slowly.

Check the US Navy look:  Blue with wing folds.
Paul Smith

Offline john vlna

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2017, 08:49:28 PM »
I like the wing folds, now you just have to build a carrier

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2017, 02:51:50 PM »
I got it in the air today.  For the second week in a row, the chain gang (Highway Prison #36) was out patching the circle.

The Shark racer, now carrier, did OK.  It needs tail weight to do a decent low, but it flew well enough for Day One.

The FasCal window shows the receiver pilot light.
My neatest servo hatch to date.  I dispensed with the tiny servo screws and clamped it in with 4-40's.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2017, 03:04:07 PM »
I like the wing folds, now you just have to build a carrier

We're working on the carrier all the time.  It's painted on the circle.
Paul Smith

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2017, 11:27:29 PM »
Paul,thanks for proposing this new carrier event. I've never flown carrier and it seems like this would be fun. I've got R/C 25s laying around the shop and the radio gear to eliminate the 3rd line.One question I have is .....is any plane legal (like a Ringmaster or Shoestring),or do the have to replicate an actual "Carrier" plane? I saw your Shark and I think I know the answer already...PhillySkip

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2017, 07:32:39 AM »
My proposed rules will be very simple.

Stock RC 25 with the factory throttle, no sliders, no left hand rotation.
Other than that, anything goes. 
You can build it as big or small as you want and move all the controls you want.
I have three models, all are revised existing planes:
Super Clown, LA-25 racer, and an old Slow Combat model.

As mentioned in my memo to Brodak, I will run the event Thursday morning and allow early flying Wednesday evening.  In order to avoid interfering with John Vlna's regular events, I won't dabble in this on Monday or Tuesday.

I'm starting with a clean sheet of e-paper and not using phrases like "just like the old event - except".
Under that theme, the high speed will be from a FLYING, not standing start.  Real Navy carrier planes don't do combat in the first half-mile.  You won't need to build a super-light model and you won't need to call an attempt if it stutters during acceleration.
High speed will be capped at 75 MPH and low at 15 MPH.
Paul Smith

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2017, 03:50:39 PM »
Thanks Paul for putting this together. I'm excited about both the Sportsman Speed and now this carrier event.

Online bob whitney

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2017, 05:55:06 PM »
as I see it there is no penalty for going over 70 or under 15 ,the points just stop at 70 and 15 yes/no ???
rad racer

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2017, 07:15:21 PM »
It's 75 and 15.  No penalty, just a cap.

The high is from a FLYING, not standing start.

So a perfect score would be 25 takeoff points, 75 high, 50 low and 100 for landing, total 250.
By the way, a 100 point landing requires the engine to running.  No crash-downs.

I'm pleased to note your interest.
Paul Smith

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2018, 08:40:36 PM »
If its not too windy or cold tomorrow I'm going to test fly my "Fun Carrier " plane. I repurposed last years Sportsman Speed plane by removing the Fox 35 and installing a Magnum 25xl with stock muffler, 8x6 prop. muffler pressure. At present I've got the throttle servo on the side of the fuse as are the 250  nicad battery and micro Rx. Tx is from a park flyer. At present I don't have a tail hook. I'm curious to see how fast it will go and of course how slow she'll fly. I'll bring my stop watch and report my findings. Oh,fuel is 10/20 my mix. Cheers,Skip

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2018, 07:04:40 AM »
I fly with a regular handle and the car controller in my left hand.

The only downside is the inability to time myself while I fly.

I built a 2.4 launcher, triggered by the steering wheel.  This solved the issue of using a pull-cord launcher with both hands full.
Paul Smith

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2018, 09:38:14 PM »
A couple more questions... to get full points does the Fun Carrier model have to be painted in Navy Blue? My plane is red and white. What are the rules on the arresting hook? How long and where does it need to be placed? Thanks,Skip

One more thing ....you have to use the stock muffler right?

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2018, 09:42:08 AM »
See your other thread. VD~
I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2018, 01:54:34 PM »
In Brodak Fun Carrier there are NO rules about paint jobs, hook length or airplane size.

Mufflers:
You can use the stock muffler, modify the the stock muffler, or use no muffler at all.  You cannot use tuned pipes or other exhaust devices other that the muffler that came with the engine.
Paul Smith

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2018, 04:26:41 PM »
Thanks Paul. I'll have to do some testing less muffler. Here's my plane:

Offline JoeJust

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 10:47:06 AM »
How about "Proxy" flying, Paul?  suppose I ship you, or somebody one of my take apart profiles with a .25 on board. Could or would anybody be interested in putting it back together and flying it?  the box would contain the plane the lines and the handle, etc. NO battery or fuel! In my name? In their name?...forget it?
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2018, 07:55:55 AM »
Proxy would be OK with me, not just in 25 Carrier, but also in Speed.

I would recommend shipping it to Brodak, not your intended proxy flyer.  I, for one, have a full van when I go to Carmichaels.
Also, sending it to Brodak would open the door to backup proxies in case your primary cancels out.
Paul Smith

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2018, 06:27:27 AM »
I relocated my 250mah battery to the outboard wing tip  (had to recover bottom of wing), but she has better line tension at low speed.What do you think will be a realistic time to shoot for on the low speed run? Thanks,Skip

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 06:49:49 AM »
I can't really say, since it's a new event.

In my experience, the best I do with a plane with fixed leadouts and a decent high is 90 to 100 seconds in 15 or 36 Profile.
So the limit of 120 seconds seems like reasonable goal.

Of course, a 120 low would be easy if you took beating the high end.  A Bi-Slob, for example, can hover all day, but it only goes 45 MPH on the high end.

Using the battery as tip weight is assumed.
Paul Smith

Offline john vlna

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2018, 12:24:44 PM »
Paul
Just to clarify, is your contest .25 or less only or can OS .35/40 be used?..
John

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2018, 10:42:26 AM »
Paul
Just to clarify, is your contest .25 or less only or can OS .35/40 be used?..
John

Go down to the thread-  A new carrier event for Brodaks.   It states .25 size rc engines.   D>K
I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
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AMA 23530

Offline john vlna

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Re: Recycing from LA-25 Sport Race to Fun Carrier
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2018, 12:29:05 PM »
Doc
I know but there was some talk about also allowing FPs. And there are no rules posted yet.
John


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