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Author Topic: Some MO-1 Alternatives  (Read 1933 times)

Offline john vlna

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Some MO-1 Alternatives
« on: December 07, 2010, 12:39:50 PM »
The MO-1 flies well and is easy to trim. I think the high wing helps. Here are two alternatives. Both fly as well.

1 The Consolidated XBY-1, only a couple prototypes made but a legal carrier plane. Tail surfaces need some enlargement and the fuselage needs to be beefed up near the tail. Pictures shows my 2nd model, using a TT36 and a tuned pipe. A little tricky to fly the low speed portion.

2. The KI-76, almost nobody Knows this one. It was a Japanese Army spotter, that was used for ASW on Japanese Army, that's right Army, Carrier. Carried two 60lb depth charges.

Offline eric conley

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 04:38:55 PM »
     I don't know John, I have had real good luck with low wing planes and would never consider high wing over low wing as a prerequisite. My feeling is first you look for the carrier plane that had the least frontal area and then you make some drawing (maybe lots of drawings) to see if you can build the plane close enough to the "PROFILE" carrier rules so that anyone who looks at it can say "oh I know what that is, its a whatever. If it is a low wing plane you have another advantage, you can line up the engine, fuel tank, and the thickest part of the wing to reduce the frontal area that much more. As long as the trailing edge of the wing appears to be at or near the bottom of the fuselage the plane will look OK.
     The Bf 109T, the F2G-1, and the Seafire MK 45 that I fly are all built in that manner and have always past the muster in scoring. This is the beauty of the "AMA Profile Rules" they give you quite a bit of leeway when designing and building the profile carrier plane. I've always felt that its to bad the AMA CL 1 and 2 plane cant be built the same way. Then you could put something together that could compete with the MO-1.

Offline john vlna

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 06:21:14 PM »
Eric,
I've seen your scores and know you don't have a problem. I didn't mean to imply that low wings weren't capable. Bill Melton flew amazingly well and always prefered the Guardian. I learned carrier on an Bell XFL-1 which is low wing. I just think that trimming a higher wing configuation is quicker and a bit easier.
John

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 06:24:06 PM »
To me the MO-1 should have been illegal from day one as it never in reality had a carrier hook as we know it.  Going thru processing at the NATS it was always amusing that they worried more about the width of the nose than they did about hook placement.  Really only a few of the scale planes had the hook in the proper location.  Sterling Gaurdian was the closest.   Landing gear location was the other nit pick item.  I remember a plane that had been published and then told it would not get scale points because the wing filets were too big.  Even the contestant had pic and plans of the filets.  I still remember the Gaurdian with a wing thickness of 3 inches.  What happened to the 15% rule back then.   VD~ S?P H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 07:28:11 PM »
In the October 1991 Model Aviation, Dick Perry blessed the MO-1. The last sentence stated "This information should lay to rest forever the question of legality of the MO-1, but it still won't make it look any better."

I don't ever remember any rule about hook placement, only length. I don't remember anything about airfoils or wing thickness, either. However, I will certainly agree that planes are getting farther out of scale, in all classes. Maybe it's time to start measuring...

Speaking as a long time MO-1 advocate, I now will say that a low wing model can fly every bit as well!

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 12:25:42 AM »
Hi Bill,
In MA Oct. 1991 Dick Perry blessed it? What does that mean. He proved it made an arrested landing? Please explain we don't have to look for the mag, etc.
Love your Zero.
Chris...

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 07:40:48 AM »
In the aforementioned column, Dick printed a picture of an MO-1 landing on the Langley. No mention of arresting gear one way or the other, and the pic was too small to tell. It could be the same photo Ty Marcucci is referring to.

Offline eric conley

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 12:29:06 PM »
     I noticed in reply#3 John mentions ''wing fillets'' as a cause for withholding scale points. In that case they were to large. My problem with fillets is I cant stand to build them on a plane. I notice that the scale rules say ''Major components'' are; and one of them is ''profiles of the wing and horizontal tail surfaces. So does that mean that you have to re placate the fillets or can you leave them off completely? Most of the WW-2 Japanese carrier planes had some pretty large fillets, at least the ones that make the better proportioned carrier planes (one being the B5N2 Kate) and also the British Seafire series. I would really like to build a Cl-1or2 carrier plane that is not a MO-1 but am put off every time I come to the fillets. Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 12:50:18 PM »
     I noticed in reply#3 John mentions ''wing fillets'' as a cause for withholding scale points. In that case they were to large. My problem with fillets is I cant stand to build them on a plane. I notice that the scale rules say ''Major components'' are; and one of them is ''profiles of the wing and horizontal tail surfaces. So does that mean that you have to re placate the fillets or can you leave them off completely? Most of the WW-2 Japanese carrier planes had some pretty large fillets, at least the ones that make the better proportioned carrier planes (one being the B5N2 Kate) and also the British Seafire series. I would really like to build a Cl-1or2 carrier plane that is not a MO-1 but am put off every time I come to the fillets. Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?

I would assume in the top view of the three views presented that if the fillet affects the outline of the wing greatly it might be questionable but the builder furnishes the three view so who is to say? Is someone saying that the three view authenticity is being judged in which case there a no rules to cover such a thing as authenticity proof of three views.
Wayne
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 03:41:32 PM »
<snip 
Breaks of Naval Air, skid marks in the sky. D>K



Wow! been a while.... that brings back memories  :)

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 07:12:56 PM »
In regard to authenticity of 3 views, the carrier rules refer back to the scale rules, and on page SC-5 of the Unified Scale Rules it discusses acceptable sources of  scale documentation. Joe Modeler's home drawn 3 views are not automatically acceptable.

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2010, 07:53:20 PM »
In regard to authenticity of 3 views, the carrier rules refer back to the scale rules, and on page SC-5 of the Unified Scale Rules it discusses acceptable sources of  scale documentation. Joe Modeler's home drawn 3 views are not automatically acceptable.

Bil, I didnt say anything about Joe Modeler's three views. Published three view drawings of the same airplane are not always the same. You got a list of acceptable sources I can show you diverging drawings of the same airplane thats why in scale you would be ill advised to show several differant three views for supporting a specific airplane.
Wayne
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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2010, 09:06:50 PM »
Fair enough. When I read "builder furnished" 3 view, I automatically defaulted to "builder created" 3 view. I agree that 3 views don't always match, even if they are from "approved" sources. Which one do you believe? The one you show up with, of course!

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 04:15:07 AM »
Fair enough. When I read "builder furnished" 3 view, I automatically defaulted to "builder created" 3 view. I agree that 3 views don't always match, even if they are from "approved" sources. Which one do you believe? The one you show up with, of course!
There have been reports of three views of certain airplanes that showed up in carrier over the years that came from dubious lineage. I remember the Spearfish scandall concerning tapered or straight leading edges. Nuff said, Christmas is coming.
Wayne
Wayne Buran
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Offline eric conley

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 11:34:41 AM »
     Thanks for your reply Wayne, I have just discovered a perfect example of what I was trying to get at. I remembered Dick Perry had done an article on the Supermarine Seafire L MkIIC in the July 2009 MA. So I went back and dug this article out and lo and behold there was a picture of a Douglas SBD (Class one or two I don't know which) looking great except for the frontal area and I'm thinking how nice it looks and the builder didn't have to fool with those darn ''fillets''. But as it turns out it would seem that only the Grumman WW-2 carrier plane lacked fillets. I looked up the SBD on the web and they do have quite large fillets, as large as the Seafire and very much in the same place. I sure didn't find a problem with the SBD so maybe I'm just making a big deal about nothing? Anyway I've ordered a package on the Seafire L Mk IIC and will sea if I can put something together.

Offline Bob Furr

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 12:22:53 PM »
Found a nice three view at http://www.aviastar.org/air/japan/kokusai_ki-76.php but the only place I could confirm carrier operation was on wikipedia... which hopefully an event director would accept.    Looks like a viable high wing alternative.  With the straight wing it would be an easy build.
Bob

Offline john vlna

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Re: Some MO-1 Alternatives
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2010, 08:32:03 AM »
The Ki-76 has been documented in several books, including Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War by Rene Francillon. I also have pictures of it on the deck of the Akitsu Maru. It won 3rd at the NATS a few years back with a Nelson. During intial testing the Nelson blew the wing off, after that I rebuilt it with an interlocking wing Joint. It flew with out a wing, but the landing wasn't pretty.  I have a new one built for next year.


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