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Author Topic: The new number 1 airplane  (Read 1335 times)

david smith

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The new number 1 airplane
« on: March 03, 2010, 09:22:51 PM »
Check this video out.  I think it could blow everything else away and you could get a multi engine bonus. LL~


Offline skyshark58

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 09:44:13 PM »
Except the rules don't allow it,  "Autogiros and helicopters, or aircraft which rotate their propellers to a horizontal plane to act as rotors for hovering flight, are prohibited"              Mike
mike potter

Offline bfrog

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 10:57:46 PM »
No arresting hook either.
Bob Frogner

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 07:45:59 PM »
I looked at the XC-142 at the Air Force Museum and noticed besides the four 4-bladed props on the wing there is also a 3-bladed prop mounted horizontally on the tail.  Note the notch at the bottom of the rudder to clear the 5th prop.

Clancy
Clancy Arnold
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U/Control with electronics added.

Offline Bob Furr

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2010, 06:56:14 AM »
I never was sure why autogyros were outlawed... understand that I only fly skyray so am not a serious carrier flyer but an autogyro has such a serious limit on forward speed that I would think it would be a novelty rather than a serious contender.   Limiting powered rotors and horizontal engines makes some sense... but does this rule keep you from using a fletner (sp) wing?
Bob

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2010, 10:56:21 AM »
I was there at the Tri-Cities NATS when the auto gyro was deemed illegal for profile carrier.  If the rules had stated that the projected disc area of the rotor could be counted, it would have been well over the minimum wing area of 300 sq. in.  Never did get to see it fly.  There was also another plane there that had the wing tilt up on low speed.   The Northwest did have some ideas.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Joe Just

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2010, 02:37:48 PM »
Doc, Hate to tell you this, but the Auto-Gryo flap didn't happen at the 89 Nats. It was the next 3 years or so, and this is how it happened.

As the ED for carrier at a local contest I was made aware of the Autogryo's entry in  an upcomin g local contest . In checking out the rules I could not see where this craft was eligibe for Profile Carrier competition.  Not wanting to make a huge error I contacted Bill Melton, Art Johnson, Marc Warwashanna and I believe Melvin Schutte.  In every case the ruling was in trepreted as follows.  "Not in Profile, OK in Class 1"  This based on the autogryo not having 300 squares of wing.  The gentleman who wished to enter the plane was told that he could in  Class 1, not in  profile and would have to take a 100 negitive hit do to a non- scale ship. He refused.

Then the fit hit the shan!  The controversy hit the NW to the point where I was forced to drop out of Carrier flying locally to keep  my sanity (what little there is) because of hate mail, lies and  being held responsible in having autogryos banned. I eventually gave up the presidency of the NCS because I could not give a remady to the problem.

The NCS re-wrote the rules saying a autogryo was not elligible folr compitition, NOT ME!

To once agai n tryin g to set the record straight, I end this and will no lon ger comment on the situation......I am on record as sayi ng the gen tleman that design ed the ship should be given  kudos for his in ovation,buildin g skills etc.  In  fact, I previously entertained this person in my home and still thinkm he is an exceptional modeler.

THAT'S IT!  Give it a rest, as should be done.

Joe Just

BTW Doc, the 89 Nats was where I first met you an d discovered how much I liked you as a good friend.

david smith

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2010, 03:34:04 PM »
Just so everybody knows I know that it is not legal, I know the rules as well as anybody else.  I just ran across the video and saw that it was on an aircraft carrier so I put it up here because I thought it was interesting, I had never seen it before, and thought others would enjoy looking too.   I thought those stupid little smiley faces were for getting the tone of how I was saying it(saying it jokingly) across. 

I didnt mean to stir anything up!

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2010, 07:58:34 AM »
Thanks for the correction Joe.  Now David there are a few planes that have taken off and landed on carrier decks.  But, because of the arrested landing rule they are not ellegible.  Have you seen the one of the C-130 I beleive that landed and after unloading took off from a carrier deck.  I have seen it in person done on dry land(runway) at the old Richards-Gebaur Airbase.  Reversing props were the answer, but no hook.  Think we could come up with one the would fly fast enough and then slow down enough to make up for the landing points.  Of course I was at the NATS when a profile was allowed to fly in Class I and took a second place trophy.  I think he gave up carrier also for all the nit picking that was going.  Since then no more profiles in scale carrier.  Don't take my word for it as I may have to go read the rules again as it has been awhile. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 09:27:00 AM »
Sorry to bring this up after so long, but here's my version of the autogiro controversy. I can't address what happened before it landed in my lap, but boy did it land in my lap! As chairman of the CL Contest Board (there was only one all encompassing board at that time), it was up to me to decide the legality of this specific aircraft. There were two different points of contention. One was whether rotary wing craft were allowed at all, and the other was the  minimum wing area issue. I could not find anything in the rules that led me to believe that rotary wings were specifically meant to be  disallowed. Rather, I felt that they were probably never even considered when the rules were written. Just like any other new idea or concept, I thought they should be legal until they were called illegal. As for wing area, I talked to some engineers from Bell and LTV, and the consensus was that there was no easy comparison.  It wasn't disc area, and it wasn't rotor blade area. So, based on the premise that the minimum 300 sq. inch area in profile was meant to dictate a certain level of performance, and MY JUDGEMENT that the autogiro in question was consistent with that intent, it should be allowed. It was also MY JUDGEMENT that allowing the rotor to be spun up by hand for takeoff was adding energy to the craft, just like pushing it would be, and should NOT be allowed.

The AMA rules were subsequently changed through the normal rule change process, reflecting the majority opinion that rotary wing and tilt rotor aircraft should not be allowed. This subject generated lots of ill will on all sides at the time, and NOBODY was happy with me, but hopefully we are all over it by now. I don't mean to stir up any hard feelings now, I just want to share some more information.

Bill Bischoff

Offline john vlna

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 07:11:05 PM »
I fly autogyros all the time. Overall they are tricky to fly. They don't like short takeoffs. Although they can be lifted off a deck it is not easy, and if setup for short field takeoffs by tilting the rotor back, high speed reduces almost nothing. They do fly slow, but not any slower than a hanging plane. All in all not very practical for carrier.

As far as not having a hook, there are planes that are allowed but never had tailhooks. The Vought Kingfisher never had a hook, and in the 70’s the AMA declared the OV-10 legal. Both were commonly used on carrier however. Even the famous MO-1, did it have a hook? And yes I know about the guide hooks on the gear, but I have never seen proof of a tail hook. But we know it flew on and off carriers.

Rule 8.1B states
b. Aircraft is designated as a carrier aircraft by an acceptable source (in cases where actual carrier-type takeoff and arrested landing are not documented).

This rule lets in planes in that were used on carriers, but did not have hooks. The C-130 landed and took off but was never used on carriers or design for carrier use so it’s not legal.

The XC-142 VTOL Tilt wing offers an interesting loophole. It apparently was intended for shipboard use. And note in para 3 the rules: “or aircraft which rotate their propellers to a horizontal plane to act as rotors for hovering flight, are prohibited. “ As we see in the video the plane does not have to rotate the props to horizontal. If you did not rotate beyond 60 degrees it seems to me that you are legal.

Who will be the first to build one and challenge the system?

Offline 50+AirYears

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 11:17:27 PM »
Anybody know how an F-8 would be recieved under the carrier rules using a functioning change in wing incidence as the full scale plane did for slow flight and landing?

Or what about a Ryan FR-1 Fireball with say a .45 in the nose and a small turbine in the tail for a "One Turnin, One Burnin" flight?  Maybe a North American AJ-1 with a pair of good .24 or .28 glow engines, and a small turbine in the fuse?  Or in fact any turbine aircraft for carrier, with an actual turbine engine?  Say that F-8 with variable wing incidence, or maybe an AD-2?  Twin Turbine?

Tony

Offline 50+AirYears

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 11:23:49 PM »
Just an afterthought, does the XC-142 actually tilt the propellors, or just the wing?  There were any number of VTOL aircraft that only tilted the propellors in relation to the wing chord line.  The wings remained fixed.  The XC-142 in fact didn't tilt the props.  It tilted the wing with the props maintaining the rotational axis in the same plane in relation to the thrust line.  Interesting interpretational loophole, what?

Maybe in my last job I spent too much time having to work with t he company legal office in patent defence.
Tony

Joe Just

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2010, 09:19:38 AM »
Anybody know how an F-8 would be recieved under the carrier rules using a functioning change in wing incidence as the full scale plane did for slow flight and landing?

At the 89 Nats in the Tri-Cities WA a local guy, John Hall, flew one in Sportsman Carrier.  It was an inovative model what with the "Pop-Up" wing setting. As a means of slowing down the plane for slow speed section of the flight it was unsuccessful.  A viewer at that flight suggested that the "Renold numbers" being reduced to model sizing was a waste of time and effort. I have a video of the flight.  Slow speed not much to write home about, but I thought John's endeavor was worth a big KUDO!!

Joe Just

Offline 50+AirYears

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2010, 01:25:19 PM »
Thank you, I appreciate the response.  Might have saved me some work.  Sounds like something for a flight operation for scale comp, though.
Tony

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2010, 10:32:49 AM »
Remember scale competition also has some rules.  If the wing tilts up for low speed option, it must return to normal flight attitude.  That is why I couldn't use flaps as an option as I couldn't get them to retract after they were activated on a Gaurdian. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline 50+AirYears

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Re: The new number 1 airplane
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2010, 01:39:49 PM »
Sounds like a place for a Clancy Ultronics multi channel OTL unit.  Of course, several extra servos might make a plane too heavy for the slow portion of Carrier, also the high speed portion.
Tony


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