Author Topic: Nats Carrier Coverage (Read 2866 times)

Joe Just · « **on:** July 16, 2013, 01:34:46 PM »

A pretty good report on the first day of navy Carrier flying at the Nats is now available from the AMA site. Really good, but a bit beyond the average reader, as to some of the problems a Carrier plane can go through. My big complaint is the picture of the great flying plane by Bill Calkins. Once again it points out how inconsistent the center judge's use of a triangle give the wrong look as to whether the plane has exceeded the 60 degree angle. In 1989 myself and another experienced modeler came up with a "self centering" device that gave an accurate judgment on the 60 degree angle no matter how the devise was held. I mentioned this in a current issue of CLW. So far there has been no interest in this accurate devise. Why?
Joe

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2013, 08:33:55 AM »

Don't worry about it Joe as the one I remember that was left with the carrier hardware disappeared. And after I quit officiating in carrier was told I was judging off the wrong should of the pilot. Maybe need to have the hook drop to a preset number of degrees and every time it gets past vertical call a foul. But, I will probably never fly carrier at the NATS again, so I don't worry about it and just have fun at the local meets.

john vlna · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2013, 06:50:54 PM »

I think it is more interesting that everyone did the same thing on the 16th as the 17th. Groundhog Day?

I of course refer to the 2nd 16th
John

Joe Just · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2013, 09:22:00 AM »

The AM A Carrier Nats report was the worst I have ever read! On the other hand I am willing to bet that the 8 people entered in Carrier this year really enjoyed the meet.
Joe

Mike Greb · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2013, 09:41:21 AM »

There was a total of one person running the carrier nats this year, with contestants helping with the timing and pull test when they were not flying. When you don't have enough help some things, like reporting has to slide.

john vlna · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2013, 10:47:21 AM »

Mike,
I completely agree, having run it last year, with about the same number is hard. Sorry I couldn't make it this year.

John

Joe Just · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2013, 12:47:51 PM »

Quote from: Mike Greb on July 20, 2013, 09:41:21 AM

There was a total of one person running the carrier nats this year, with contestants helping with the timing and pull test when they were not flying. When you don't have enough help some things, like reporting has to slide.

Mike, a good look at this year. However your statement points out a symptom. When local contests out number the participation in Carrier at the Nats there is a problem.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2013, 01:01:17 PM »

Who can we blame but ourselves for the situation. I vaguely remember the first year I ran carrier. Had tons of advice in which the main one was, I would have no friends during the event. I was fortunate enough that the AMA paid a little to my helpers and they were well experienced or coached at the NATS. Have watched carrier participation decline thru the years and have no real answer on how to get people to the NATS. Even the unofficial events are not what they used to be. But, my last carrier flight was in Wichita last with an event director that did not know all the rules. But, we all flew under same conditions and I had fun.

But, I thought the NATS report was good with a lot of pictures to tell the story. Great to see Bill Bischoff back at it. Maybe it is time to cut back on the number of events on unofficial day. Also anymore thought on skill classes like Aerobatics had with PAMPA. I know I will never be the caliber of Bill, Pete or any of the top five. I guess I need to get off the computer and my duff to start flying more.

bill bischoff · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2013, 04:02:22 PM »

Congratulations to Burt Brokaw for his new Class II record of 522, and his first Eugene Ely award. And thanks again to Bill Calkins and everybody who waited for me all day to come over to put my flights in. I wish I could have been there to see some great flying earlier in the day, but racing had me kind of busy.

Bill Bischoff

john e. holliday · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2013, 07:53:51 AM »

Congrats from the old DOC to Burt. He is quite a gentleman and works hard at what ever he does. Remember him from VSC and Cabin Fever contests out Tuscon way.

Joe Just · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2013, 07:05:59 PM »

I want to add my congratulations to Burt as well. Several of us have predicted his winning the Nats.
Joe

Mike Keville · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2013, 10:16:03 PM »

Burt has been working very hard at Carrier the past few years. He is a valued member of our club here in Tucson...always a gentleman and very modest. You'd have to look hard to find a nicer guy. We're very happy to see his success.

dale gleason · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2013, 10:09:55 AM »

Bill Bischoff brought some interesting planes to Carrier this year, notably a cool slider mechanism and 2.4 to operate it and the throttle. After his impossible feat of flying so many Racing events for everyone, I don't see how he managed to even get to the Carrier circle, but he did. His equipment operated flawlessly, as usual, but his aim was to introduce some new ideas that might increase participation. At the local level, he has built two Hellcats profiles for one and all to fly, as he has chronicled on this forum.

He, and others, are trying, it's just a tough sell for any control line discipline.

If the reporting in Nats News comes from the competitors, it must be remembered that they may be flying other events, trying to breathe life back into them. My experience this year was to drop Old Time Stunt and Classic, fly Open Stunt and Super Slow Rat. That about did me in. Perhaps I'll man up and fly Carrier next year, but I'm pretty sure I'll have to drop something else....turning "three score and ten" does slow one down...

dg

john vlna · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2013, 11:12:18 AM »

Dale

Being a bit older is why I am going all electric. You don't have to bend over to start an engine. Couldn't make it this year hope to be there next year.

Maybe Bill should go in the ARF business, that might get more folks flying.
John V.

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2013, 11:27:29 AM »

Quote from: Mike Keville on July 21, 2013, 10:16:03 PM

Burt has been working very hard at Carrier the past few years. He is a valued member of our club here in Tucson...always a gentleman and very modest. You'd have to look hard to find a nicer guy. We're very happy to see his success.

I met Burt this year at the NW Regionals, and I agree top notch guy.

Peter Mazur · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2013, 01:28:09 PM »

The reporter for Nats News was not a Carrier flier and never has been. He spent a lot of time at the field working on this, but you have to expect that he might not get the same perspective of a seasoned Carrier flier. He worked hard and did the best he could with the limited experience he had, so I think we should cut him some slack even if his articles aren't the way we would have written them.
Pete

bill bischoff · « **Reply #16 on:** July 23, 2013, 02:44:51 PM »

He can write whatever he wants as long as he brings Jenni Orebaugh around with him!

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2013, 12:04:04 PM »

As a Stunt flyer paying a little bit of attention to carrier in the Nats news, I thought it looked and sounded great. I didn't know it was only 8 guys, could've been 28 to me by the stories and great pictures. Keep at it, to the rest of the world it's not as bad as it seems to those that are in close.

BTW, I'll never go to the Nats again. Having it in one place has turned it into a regional contest. For Ohio and Indiana. AMA was run by captains of industry when it was in it's heyday. Model airplane company "execs" with their own jobs ran it with their passion to operate the national sanction for model airplanes in the US under the NAA. When you have salaries paid out for people to become full time AMA employees, we no longer get a National Championship. Too much competition for the money. "Am I to use this money for moving the Nats around the country, or pay myself?" You fill in the answer!
Chris...

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2013, 12:10:59 PM »

Quote from: Joe Just on July 16, 2013, 01:34:46 PM

A pretty good report on the first day of navy Carrier flying at the Nats is now available from the AMA site. Really good, but a bit beyond the average reader, as to some of the problems a Carrier plane can go through. My big complaint is the picture of the great flying plane by Bill Calkins. Once again it points out how inconsistent the center judge's use of a triangle give the wrong look as to whether the plane has exceeded the 60 degree angle. In 1989 myself and another experienced modeler came up with a "self centering" device that gave an accurate judgment on the 60 degree angle no matter how the devise was held. I mentioned this in a current issue of CLW. So far there has been no interest in this accurate devise. Why?
Joe

Hey Joe,
I'm sure that the center judge was making allowances in his ample mind for the known vagaries of carrying a triangle around by hand when making calls.
My question is, were there any calls made?
All of the pictures I saw looked as if the modelers were flying pretty consistently at near but not past the limit. When the photo was taken was probably not when the center judge was making his judgement call, he was stepping then, moving position, etc, and knew it.

Chris...

don Burke · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2013, 01:15:39 PM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on July 29, 2013, 12:10:59 PM

Hey Joe,
I'm sure that the center judge was making allowances in his ample mind for the known vagaries of carrying a triangle around by hand when making calls.
My question is, were there any calls made?
All of the pictures I saw looked as if the modelers were flying pretty consistently at near but not past the limit. When the photo was taken was probably not when the center judge was making his judgement call, he was stepping then, moving position, etc, and knew it.

Chris...

I've been to carrier contests out here in SOCAL and from what I've seen the "judges" make a genuine effort to monitor the 60º hang. The best thing I've seen is a triangle mounted on a handle. The thing is set up to hang level with weights no matter what the user's hand is doing. Works very well.

BTW in talking to a former CL contest board member, the 60º hang came about because someone thought there should be some kind of limit. The board chose 60º as a RIDICULOUS number because no one would fly like that. I think the BRITS use 30º, much more realistic IMO.

david smith · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2013, 05:57:13 PM »

To c

Quote from: Chris McMillin on July 29, 2013, 12:10:59 PM

Hey Joe,
I'm sure that the center judge was making allowances in his ample mind for the known vagaries of carrying a triangle around by hand when making calls.
My question is, were there any calls made?
All of the pictures I saw looked as if the modelers were flying pretty consistently at near but not past the limit. When the photo was taken was probably not when the center judge was making his judgement call, he was stepping then, moving position, etc, and knew it.

Chris...

I am sure there were calls made. It just isnt something that is documented unless it is used for a disqualification. In my opinion, if you are someone that is able to fly in the 3 min plus low speed range and you make it through the whole flight without getting a warning then you werent getting all that you could have out of the flight. To be at the level of the guys that were at the NATS takes a lot of practice. To be able to have enough control of your plane to push that limit for the 7 laps of low and adapt to the conditions that are usually changing constantly takes every bit of skill and knowledge that you can get from practice.

For those that may see a pic from a contest and a plane might look like it is past 60 then keep in mind that the picture is only a split second and the rest of the low speed could have been well below 60. Remember you are allowed 3 warnings before you get disqualified.
david

bill bischoff · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2013, 09:07:26 PM »

I flew, I got warnings. Like David said, if you don't get warnings, you're not trying hard enough! Remember, a photo is only telling the true story when it is looking squarely at the side of airplane. If you can see any of the top or bottom surface of the wing, the photo is not providing an accurate representation. More to the point, the judge has the last word, PERIOD. There is nothing to be gained by questioning his judgement after the fact, especially if you don't have skin in the game. We have a hard enough time getting volunteers as it is.

Joe Just · « **Reply #22 on:** July 30, 2013, 01:51:02 PM »

Bill and all,
I must make this clear. I am not in any way casting negative thoughts against ANY person. My problem is that a hand held triangle is about the worst thing possible to use as a guide. There are solutions to using this devise, but for some reason disspite several attempts to use a self centering guide at other Carrier meets, there seems to be no interest in even giving one a try at the most important meet of the year, the AMA Nats.
Joe

bill bischoff · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2013, 03:08:28 PM »

Joe, I've seen your 60 degree device. I like it. If I had one, I'd use it. If there were any in the NATS equipment, I believe they are gone now. Where did they go? I don't know. But you can't use what you ain't got!

That notwithstanding, I'd want the center judge to use whatever method he feels he can be most comfortable and consistent with.

FWIW, the picture of Bill Calkins flying has to be from a previous NATS, as he was ED this year.

Joe Just · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2013, 05:10:11 PM »

Bill, We built 5 of them originally. 1 was put in the Nats Carrier stuff in 1989, but that deck was shot and was never taken back to Muncie. In 1990 1 was put in the stuff that was to return to Muncie with the deck that Melvin and Doc built. In 1992 I took one to Chickopee (sp ?) and again placed it with the weights etc. The last one I had I presented in 1995 in Richland. It never made it to Muncie as far as I can determine. With the Carrier Nats dwindling to such a small turn out I think our efforts should now turn to a SERIOUS discussion as to How, Why, and what we can do to save our event from disappearing in total at Muncie and leave the triangle problem to a NCS sponsored committee.
OK GUYS, ANY TAKERS ON SOMEBODY STARTING A NEW THREAD? I will abstain, unless nobody chimes in within a couple of weeks.
Joe

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #25 on:** August 05, 2013, 05:34:35 PM »

Quote from: Joe Just on July 30, 2013, 01:51:02 PM

Bill and all,
I must make this clear. I am not in any way casting negative thoughts against ANY person.
Joe

Didn't think you were, Joe. I get carried away writing descriptions.
Chris...