Except for NW Regionals and the Sping Tune-up in Portland, we only fly NW Sport .40 here in the NW.  So anyone flying an AMA carrier class would not be able to fly NW Sport .40 the rest of the year?  If I have you correct, that would kill Carrier in the NW.  Maybe I don't understand.  I can see if you had a Sportsman Class at the NATS not having the big boys fly in Sportsman. But in local events I don't see it.

I agree. This year was my first time at NW Regionals. We flew with locals and "experts" (Eric and Burt), I wouldn't have changed that.  My sons and I soaked up every bit of knowlege we could, and had a GREAT time. I can't remember if the "experts" flew NW Sport .40 or not, but it wouldn't have matter to anyone there.  I think all of us flying NW Sport .40 in Washington and Oregon take it as a competition, it's the only contests we have going. I can see the restrictions at the NATS, if they even fly a Sprotsmans Class there.

In all sincerity I really would like one, or more, of the "Expert" profile competitors to give their reasoning as to why they want to fly what in all aspects is a beginner/sportsman, or just for the heck of it event.  I am not trying to eliminate their flying in NW .40 Profile if that is their desire, but I really can't fathom their want or need to beat guys like myself and other duffers.  I recently asked one of the top Profile competitors why he didn't give the new event a try.  His answer was ( and I paraphrase) "I get no kick out of beating guys like you Joe.  I compete so I have to really push myself against other top guys!"  With the NW record now standing at 199 why would anyone capable of flying well into the 300's and more fly NW .40?  Just to set the record straight, I have flown NW .40 once each year only for the last 3 years, and have finished dead last each time. However I have never had so much fun flying a NW contest, and that goes back to the late 70's.
Dividing NW .40 into two skill groupings maybe the best answer.  The cut-off needs to be either voluntary or by the numbers.  And the rules for the NW have to be debated and voted on as they have been since the inception of the event here.  What ever takes place elsewhere does not have to be followed.  Taking a look at the just published "Top 20"  from the NCS The top 16 all scored higher than 250.  Expert class should start above that score, what ever the under 250 class is called 250 should be the dividing line. Now is the time to lock in some basic reasoning to NW .40 before this great fun  event goes the way of Clown Race where local contests had entries of up to 18 entries to what we have now, just 2 or 3 guys flying.

Your comments PLEASE!
Joe
PS Don't want your comments show?  PM me instead. I will pass them on without a name.

I say leave it alone. This is a simple event with simple rules. The idea was and is to get as many people flying NW Sport .40 as we can.  Now we want to limit it to scores under 250, sorry Joe I don't agree.  Joe you know how I feel about you, so please don't take it the wrong way.  We just had the record set at 199, by Bill Darkow. Bill is 81 years old and this is the only event he flies all year and he's looking to better his score next year. He's flying a new plane that 'could' break 250.  So, he breaks 250 if the plane and the pilot bring everything together in one day and then we tell him he can't fly with us anymore?  I won't back that.  We've (my sons and I) flown NW Sport .40  for the last two years and only Mike has competed in it more than we have in that time. And no one flying this event wants it changed.  I can't think we want to put something like this to a vote on Flyinglines with a bunch of people who don't and/or won't fly with us, and let them decide to change it for those who fly it.  It's just like the fuel vote last time, I remember someone telling me 40-50 people voted on that issue and we only have, at the most 12-15 at any given contest.  Most of us don't even care what fuel is used, but now we have to find a fuel which is hard to find in our area, where most of the events are flown. Again, Joe you know I count you as a close friend and we don't have to agree on everything. And are we really talking about one contest a year, NW Regionals, which we don't even know if we will have again? That's the only contest I saw an "expert" at, and again I don't even know if either one of them actually the event.

If we are talking about Paul Walker and all the expert PA guys, I understand your point.  They could fly a 500 with a 1/2a.  But we're not.  So I looked up the 2013 Regionals results, this to me proves my point.  Burt and Eric did fly NW Sport .40, they did take 1st and 2nd place, followed by my 16 year old son who has only been flying carrier for a year and a half.  And the top three only had a ten point spread. Eric and Burt's scores were not even near 250, and were far below any other scores they put in that weekend..  This is a fun event and we all are having a blast flying it.  We are only really talking about one contest here, the Regionals. And we might not even have another one.  I was there this year and no one that I talked to had a problem with them flying.  I would not have changed a thing, Eric and Burt both jumped in and help every time anyone needed anything. Two of the best guys I've ever met in the hobby.  This event is the limiting factor, engines, no sliders, ect.  And the 'Experts' scores should prove that.  If we kick old Bill out because he flew that new plane well and physically he had a great day, something's wrong.  He might not have anyone to fly against unless he ever goes to the Regionals again.  This event has done nothing but grow, why change anything?

NW 40 is a local event. And no amount of money will help you in it.  That's the cool thing about it and in my opinion why it's growing so fast.  We had one lone carrier guy in the Skyraiders when we started. Now we have at least six that I can think of. And many others that come to the contests from all over Washington and Oregon.  And Burt and Eric's scores were not recorded in the NW records for Regionals, just the local guys.  Do any of the local guys have a problem with Burt and Eric flying at the Regionals. I know I don't and I learned a ton from them at the Regionals.  Eric has gone beyond the call of duty to help me and my boys in NW 40 carrier.

Hi Duke, my name's in the botttom of the post, C stands for Cunha. Yes, I entered NW Sport 40 Carrier (among other events) at the last NW Regionals. Got a practice flight in. 95 point landing then my wing came loose in the fuselage so I did not get an official. I consider Burt and Eric friends in modeling but would still like there to be two classes so your boy can win next year rather than just compete for third. Only two in Expert?, as the event grows that will change. Without skill classes it will become just another beginner event dominated by a few Experts. If that's what you all want...fine, but I think Joe and Doc have got it right...been there, seen that.

Well Scott I don't think you need to waist to much time try to see if you can get a 250 point score in NWS40 unless you are planning on hanging the plane in the low speed portion of the event and I hope you arnt going to do that (like Burt and I have done in the last 2 NWRs). I don't believe Mike ever concidered the hang being used in S40 and firmly feel it shouldn't. As Mike says its a new event and we can change the rules as it evolves "if we have to". I'm enclined to agree with Pete, to have more than one S40 class at least at some contests (the ED would have the control over this) and I would be happy to sponsor the extra 3 trophies at the next NWR if they decide to do the event that way. Which brings up another thing that would need to be done and that is how are we going to set up the cut point? S40 is being flown at 2 contest in the LA area and also in several contest down in Arizona. It is a scheduled event in the Carrier Plus contest in Phoenix this next weekend. I have a feeling that Bill's flight is probably the best non hanging score there is right now so?

This in my opinion is a great event and I would rather fly this event than the AMA stuff (well most of the time) because it is so simple and straight foreward (if it weren't for the hanger's). Eric

Reading this as an interested observer, I'd like to throw this out on the table - (Re: NW .40 Carrier)

Why not use a handicap system? Works for Golf and Bowling...

For the guys who fly the higher classes, they would enter as "Experts" with a -0- handicap applied to their final score.

The next 2 classes down would be "Sportsman", then "Beginner" with ascending handicaps accordingly.

It would make the Experts sweat it out and give the Beginners a sporting chance.

Hope I'm not throwing a wrench in the thread, just a thought.

That's a good idea, if we ever need something. You aren't isolating anyone from the local contests then.

The great minds are gathered, now we just need Burt to bring him laptop to do the math.   I really like the idea of one contest, if we have to do something.  Where you use this 'handicap' system, how do you set the handicap? from the year before? The contest before?  How about the new guy with no average? Do you reset your handicap each year like bowling?

I'm thinking along the line of glof or bowling.

In golf, you have (score-course rating) x slope rating = handicap.  Please foregive me if I have that wrong. I don't play golf that well.  So, you would have (Avg. score-actual score) x 0.5.  Just for example, say the average score is 190 and you score 187. (190-187)=3x0.5=1.5 handicap. your score would be 188.5.  In golf though, you need to have 4-5 to 20 scores on that course to do this.

In bowling, you start the year out with zero. The first day you bowl three games and get an average and your handicap is based off a set number/score of around 200.  Then your average changes day by day, total pins to date/ by total games to date.  Seem like this would be an easy way to do it, we could base it on the 200pt score. whichis where we are now.

With any handicap system you always have to worry about the "sandbaggers".  Good ideas by all.

We do that in the 25 stunt class in Northern California. It works well for that event but I still prefer the two skill classes for this one.  

How's your handicap system set up? Points or a Formula?

I'm thinking along the line of glof or bowling.

In golf, you have (score-course rating) x slope rating = handicap.  Please foregive me if I have that wrong. I don't play golf that well.  So, you would have (Avg. score-actual score) x 0.5.  Just for example, say the average score is 190 and you score 187. (190-187)=3x0.5=1.5 handicap. your score would be 188.5.  In golf though, you need to have 4-5 to 20 scores on that course to do this.

In bowling, you start the year out with zero. The first day you bowl three games and get an average and your handicap is based off a set number/score of around 200.  Then your average changes day by day, total pins to date/ by total games to date.  Seem like this would be an easy way to do it, we could base it on the 200pt score. whichis where we are now.

With any handicap system you always have to worry about the "sandbaggers".  Good ideas by all.

If you could make it tough to set your handicap. Say, a qualifying flight to get a baseline for the contest that sets your handicap, then if you exceed the baseline flight for an official by a percentage, your disqualified for sandbagging.

Have a scaled handicap/ time chart with a combined score that never exceeds the "Record" for NW Carrier and you'll be forced to fly a good qualifying flight to make a showing. The chart would be updated every year at the start of the season.

Keep the Exceedance (percentage above qualifying baseline score) at a minimal percent with a generous handicap for beginners at the low end that tapers in a curve down to the higher scores (Sportsman).

Duke, the only difference in NW .15 and the otherwise National .15 Carrier is the following.  In the original Denver rules, the rules that basically are used outside the NW, the rule state the plane must be a Profile.  Attempts to bring the NW rules into conformation to everyone else have failed. Don't ask me why, I can't explain it.
Joe

I just think for now, the K.I.S.S. system is the best.  But, the last time I used the K.I.S.S. phase (talking about this event BTW) another guy took it as me calling him stupid. So I try not to use it that often anymore. And I'd love to fly against you, Burt , and anyone else, anytime.  I'm not afraid, stupid maybe, but not afraid.   To me it's just about flying these little toy planes. And talking in the pits, maybe more about talking in the pits. And for the ones that know me, you know I'm better at the talking. Joe is about my speed, I love pulling up a chair next to Joe in the pits. Good Times!

A handicap system works in the NorCal 25 stunt event because since AMA stunt has skill classes everyone knows what class they fly in and how many points they are entitled to. To try and determine a handicap from scratch would, to put it one way, not be simple. As for the two classes rather than one idea, it's not about fear, it's about giving new and less experienced fliers a chance to win. Isn't that one of the purposes of a "beginner" event?

Sport flying is one thing, contests are another. Competitors like to believe they have a chance of winning, especially individuals who are just starting out in the sport. Skill classes allow that. They are a primary reason that participation in stunt has increased rather than declined as has every other C/L event. For the record, if there were two classes I would fly the in Competitor/Expert class, 45 plus years of flying the event and more than a few Carrier trophies and plaques on the wall prove I ain't no beginner...no matter what the score. That's a wrap.

The question of sticking with the rules as written are serious, and should not be overlooked because one doesn't like the rule.
Joe

This is a good point and well taken.