Here are the rules from the AMA website.   

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/events/rulebooks/clcarrier.pdf


8. Bonus Points.
8.1. A scale model of a carrier aircraft of any nation, provided it displays the national markings of the using nation, shall receive bonus points. A carrier aircraft is any man-carrying aircraft which was successfully flown and which meets at least one (1) of the following requirements:
a. Aircraft made actual carrier-type takeoff and arrested landing on an actual or simulated carrier deck, or b. Aircraft is designated as a carrier aircraft by an acceptable source (in cases where actual carrier-type takeoff and arrested landing are not documented).
8.1.1. Scale three-view drawings of the full-scale aircraft and proof that the aircraft meets the above requirements must be submitted to be eligible for scale bonus points. (See Proof of Scale rules in the Unified Scale Judging section for acceptable sources of plans and documentation.)

8.1.3. Profile Class.
8.1.3.1. Profile Class models shall receive 10 bonus points if the outlines of the major components of the model closely resemble (by official’s visual judgment) the actual aircraft as shown in the three-view drawing. (Judges Guide: The model should be identifiable with the full-scale aircraft shown in the three-view.) The “major components” of Profile Class models are considered to be the side-view profiles of the fuselage, engine nacelles, and vertical tail surfaces, and the top-view profile of the wing and horizontal tail surfaces. Movable surfaces need not have scale hinge lines or dimensions as long as the outlines of the major components are preserved. Neither scale dihedral nor scale landing gear location is required.
8.1.4. To receive bonus points in any class: a. The color of the model must be similar to any military-type aircraft paint scheme. b. If a clear canopy is not used the cockpit or canopy area must be defined with a contrasting color or color outline denoting the scale area.
8.2 Twenty (20) points shall be awarded if more than one engine is used to power the model, provided all engines contribute to the performance of the model from takeoff through at least the low-speed portion of the flight.




Historic bonus points apply to the nostalgia events.

NCS uses the 1974-1975 AMA Competition Regulations as the basis for Nostalgia Carrier. These rules are posted on the NCS web site. Just to confirm, no scale points are awarded for Profile models. However, the rules do encourage profile models to have a scale-like outline. Profile models are also encouraged to have colors and markings representative of naval aircraft.

A 100 point Historic Bonus is awarded for suitable models that were sold as kits, published as plans, or flown prior to January 1, 1978. Unpublished designs are allowed if they can be properly dated and if plans, however rudimentary they may be, are made available upon request.

The RC Store web site for Model Airplane News lists a number of the specialized Profile carrier models that were published during that era. There are also plans listed from the AMA Plans Service.

Bob

Edited for content

The 100 points ruling was just now passed by the NCS membership. There has been no repley to my asking for the voting results as of this date.  The premise of using the OTS way of allowing models is based on a mistaken idea by some that there are a unified set of rules governing the legality of any model. This idea was inserted without realizing there are two vesions of what an OTS model is or is not elligible.  The GSCB original rules have been modified by PAMPA  and this has resulted in some confusion as to what is or is not allolwed. Some planes have been allowed by PAMPA with some mystic version of eligibility while confirmed elligable planes  like the Firecat have not been allowed even though there is written confermation to show the Firecat was designed and prototypes built before the end of 1952. I personally think the NCS should re-think the 100 point ruling until a clarified rule is written, voted on (with voting results available) and then inserted.
Along with this rant is an objection to the "plan availability" new ruling that myself and other NCS members find unworkable.  One NCS member has siad to me said..."you want plans for my ....... ship that is elligible?  Ok, each set is now $500".  Along with rebuilding the 100 point rule myself and others think this porotion of nostalgia rules need tweeking.

Does this reply count as a "moderation"?

Joe Just Past Prez of the NCS and a Life Membver of same

There needs to be two (2) parts to this discussion:

Part One: 100 points (new) vs. 20 points (old)

The point change was adopted in order to encourage the use of pre-January 1, 1978 designs for Nostalgia instead of modern designs flown with the sliders locked. In my book that seems pretty simple to grasp.

Part Two: Model Eligibility

The desire was to offer a wider latitude for eligible models, especially for models that were not sold as kits or not published as plans. Again, a cut-off date of January 1, 1978 seems pretty simple to grasp. The last thing needed is a bunch of "street corner lawyers" and wannabe politicians mucking up the works. As far a someone demanding an unreasonable tribute for a plan, well..., that's very unfortunate. This is, after all, just a pastime that is supposed to provide pleasure.

Bob

Carrier has never been a casual event.  It has always been dominated by people who want to win at an cost.  Hence, the MO-1 powered by a left-handed Nelson, in Profile, which was originally brought in as an entry level event.

It would be nice if Nostalgia didn't become just another set of attempts with the same mentality.  I cannon fathom why 1978 would be set as the cutoff date when the complete replacement of the rule was effective January 1, 1976.

This 100-point historic bonus is obviously targerted at totally eliminating all non-historic models.  So the issue of EXACTLY what IS historic is a key element.

http://navycarriersociety.org/NostagilaCarrier.aspx

I pulled up the current NCS site.  The model needs to have been flown, published, etc prior to January 1, 1978.

But it does NOT SAY, "flown in Carrier".  So, barring any further revision, it is permissible to use any design that was available prior to the cutoff date.

It seems logical to me.  In 1973 you could put a hook & throttle on a Flite Streak or a Ringmaster, and you still can.  Just like the olden days.

It seems logical to me.  In 1973 you could put a hook & throttle on a Flite Streak or a Ringmaster, and you still can.  Just like the olden days.

Exactly!

In 1970 I flew a Sterling Skyshark in Profile at the NATS. It had the wing modified with extra wide flap pieces to get to 300 sq. in. There is photographic evidence to support my claim. A reprise of that model would be eligible for the 100 point bonus.

Bob

You know what was funny 'bout that - the event director was the only other Nostalgia entry at that contest. He flew a Sterling Hellcat. I had beat him by about 15 points with the historical bonus. Then, when the scores were tallied, it was decided that the Sterling (profile) F6-F was eligible for the 20 historic points, my Buster-Cat wasn't. I ended up second by 5 points. Pointing out that the Sterling Hellcat was kitted as a Stunt/Sport/R/C model, not a carrier design didn't help - I lost.  No conflict of interest there eh? Luckily, I don't fly for the trophies but because I like landing on a carrier, it is a great break from the stunt wars.

I still maintain though, my picky point that adding a hook is not among the mods permitted by the Nostalgia rules. This disqualifies many designs that were flown in the era for a historical model bonus (including my Buster-Cat, a revelation which occurred after the previously described incident). Re-locating a hook is permitted, adding one isn't. This entails that the design be originally intended for carrier which may have been the entent in the first place. 

This discussion is moot however as the rules in the NCS web site have been replaced, I guess, by the 100 pt rules. I hope they are specific on what planes are allowed because 20 points, I can lose, 100 pts hurts, even for a non-competitive carrier type like myself. 

OK Pete,

Within the framework of your interpretation of the rule here is how it works:

I want to reprise a Ringmaster based Profile Carrier model that I flew in 1968. The Ringmaster was never intended for Carrier so it doesn't show a tail hook installation on the plans. My claim is as follows: My model is an original design Profile Carrier plane that incorporates certain parts of a Ringmaster and my own tailhook installation. All I need to do is prove that I used to fly such a plane and make drawings available.

But really, I don't believe it should come to that. To repeat, the Nostalgia rules were never intended to disqualify designs that were not purpose built carrier models.

Bob

Joe wrote:

"The 100 points ruling was just now passed by the NCS membership. There has been no repley to my asking for the voting results as of this date."

Yes, the rules have just been changed by the NCS.

I chaired the committee and collected the results. Joe, you sent me your response. I don't know who you made the request to but it wasn't me.  I have yet to receive any request for the results.

The results were:

For - 14
Opposed - 2

This was after allowing 2 months of input from the membership of the NCS. I received only a handful of comments, mostly  from the committee members with at most 3 comments by other NCS members. The call for comments was posted in the NCS newsletter in early October. The call for votes was published in early December with a cut off date of December 31 so the rules would apply for 2010. There was ample time for comments and discussion which very few people participated in.

The 1974-75 rules state:

"It is encouraged that the plane outlines follow some type of Navy aircraft, and the paint scheme (color) must be of some traditional Navy type with Navy markings. There will be no bonus points awarded in this class."

The current nostalgia rules are as follows (these were published for comment in the last issue of High/Low Landings).

NOSTALGIA CL NAVY CARRIER
(1 January 2010)

1.  Philosophy:  The Nostalgia Navy Carrier event offers Carrier flyers an opportunity for additional Navy Carrier competition in a relaxed and enjoyable atmosphere.  It recreates an earlier period of Navy Carrier flying which predated the prop-hanging slow flight which characterizes today's competition.  As the years separate us more and more from the models, engines, and flying styles that formed the beginnings of the modern event, Nostalgia Navy Carrier will help to keep alive the memory of those earlier years.  Because the models are simpler than those used in modern competition, Nostalgia Navy Carrier may introduce new flyers to Navy Carrier competition.

2.  Applicability:  The CL Navy Carrier rules as published in the 1974-1975 AMA Official Model Aircraft Regulations shall govern this event except as modified below.

3.  Model Requirements:  Model design is unrestricted except as specified below and in the AMA Official Model Aircraft Regulations.  To encourage models which accurately reproduce actual nostalgia era Navy Carrier models, bonus points are awarded.
 
  3.1.  Engine Specifications:  Engine and fuel system specifications shall be as listed in the current AMA regulations for each event.

  3.2.  Moveable Leadouts:  Vertical or horizontal position of the leadouts relative to the model may not change in flight.

  3.3.  Electronic Control Systems:  Electronic control systems are not permitted.

4.  Builder of the Model:  The builder of the model rule does not apply to Nostalgia Navy Carrier.

5.  Historic Model Bonus:  A bonus of 100 points will be awarded for models which were designed, published, or kitted prior to January 1, 1978. The Contest Director may require proof of eligibility, which shall be the responsibility of the contestant. Proof may consist of dated, published plans; construction article, photograph or advertisement from dated magazines; dated photographs, and/or letter of confirmation of the date of design. Plans of un-kitted, un-published designs must be made available to NCS membership. To qualify for this bonus, models must comply with the following requirements:

  5.1.  Modifications:  No modifications to the original design are permitted, except as listed below.  Any modifications other than those listed in section 5.2 which, in the opinion of the event director, significantly change the appearance or performance of the model as it was originally designed, shall not be permitted.  This prohibition includes, but is not limited to, changes in airfoil, changes in dimensions, and use of moveable control surfaces not included on the original design.
 
  5.2.  Allowable Modifications:
    5.2.1.  Landing gear may be changed in length or material, but must exit the model at the original position.  A tail wheel may be substituted for a skid and vice versa.  Wheels may be of any diameter.
    5.2.2.  Leadout position may be changed from that shown on the plan.  Ground-adjustable leadouts are permitted.
    5.2.3.  Control travel, control mechanism location, and control mechanism may be changed.
    5.2.4.  Tip weight may be changed or may be adjustable.
 
NOSTALGIA CL NAVY CARRIER
(CONTINUED)
   
    5.2.5.  Tail hook and its location may be changed.
    5.2.6.  Structural changes to strengthen the aircraft are permitted.
    5.2.7.  Building and finishing material substitutions are permitted.
    5.2.8.  Location of access hatches may be changed.
    5.2.9.  Engine mountings may be changed, and engines of different displacement may be used.
   
6.  Non-schnuerle Engine Bonus:  Non-schnuerle engines will receive a bonus of 20 points.

7.  Carrier Deck:  A carrier deck corresponding to current AMA regulations will be used.

8.  Records:  Records will not be established for Nostalgia Navy Carrier.

9.  Combination of Classes:  Class I and Class II may be combined for Nostalgia Navy Carrier.  If classes are combined, Class I models will receive a five percent bonus on total score (multiply Class I total score by 1.05).  Profile Class will not be combined with Class I and Class II in Nostalgia Navy Carrier.


Based on my reading you can fly a Sopwith Camel, IF IT IS DOCUMENTED AS A PRE 1978 MODEL AIRCRAFT.

Now read the opening paragraph again. This is meant to be a fun event. These rules are published by the NCS to provide contest directors with a standard set of rules. If someone wants to amend these rules for their contest they are welcome to do that.

Paul you stated:

"When they quintupled the bonus, they should have expected 5 times the grief.
 
Better to drop the bonus entirely and just let us build planes that comply with the 1974-75 rules."

Where were your comments during the comment period? If you had an opinion there was plenty of time to submit it to the NCS. The majority of those that voted voted for the change.

In another post:

"Profile kicked around as a local event for several years before a brief stint in the AMA Rule Book pre-1978.  There just isn't much hard evidence on just where the line is."

What line are you talking about? The 1974-75 rules part of the nostalgia rules and cover profile.


David Shad said:

"One other question to add to Paul's thoughts is...Isn't there a list of eligible models around somewhere?  I
had read that Dick Perry had published a list of eligible Carrier Planes for this event...Can we get this or maybe
even post it here?  Thanks Guys...Dave."

I will check with Dick and see if he has such a document. It would be start but there is no way it would be all inclusive, hence the documentation requirement written in the rules.

As far as adding a tail hook the way I read the rules it would be allowable.

5.2.  Allowable Modifications:

5.2.5.  Tail hook and its location may be changed.

To me that says a tailhook can be added. If it said only "tailhook location can be changed" then I wouldn't think you could add one.

There is no mention of :

This entails that the design be originally intended for carrier which may have been the entent in the first place. 


If you read the open paragraph in the nostalgia rules the intent is for nostalgia designs to be old carrier designed and or flown models but that is not what is in the rule (now OR previous to the latest change).


On last comment, Pete Cunha wrote:

I think I'll just finish the carrier plane I am building (a Spearfish) then stick to stunt. For an event that hardly anyone flies anymore, it is just too #4^%$&** controversial.

This really disappoints me and I hope I have shed some positive light the subject. I love flying carrier and my response is meant to encourage others to fly the event. There is no intent to be controversial. This is a fun event. Bring what you have, fly it and have fun. If there are people who are trying to make it controversial they are missing the point of the event and the hobby. We participate in the hobby to have an enjoyable time with our model airplanes. We are not contesting for large amounts of money or fame. If it's fun do it, if it's not fun find something else to do.




 

Thanks for the posting Bob. I deleted that comment shortly after I posted it. It was an expression of my frustration, not with the event but with all the controversy about what is supposed to be a simple, fun event. Think I'll stick to building and flying from here on in.  

Tom,

Thanks for posting the magazine list. It's a real good starting point for anybody that is interested.

Good input.

Bob

Paul,

In my last post I told you how the vote was arrived at. All of the members were involved that wished to be involved. It is not uncommon for only a small portion of the membership to respond. Assuming that only a small group votes is completely in error. READ WHAT I WROTE IN THE LAST POST AGAIN!!!!!

"The only knowledge that this scheme was afoot came via phone call from Mark Warwashana who assured me that he vigorously opposed the increase to 100 points."

Did you  think to ask him how he responded? Mark has all of the information, including my email address, to submit comments.

Mark vigorously voted no and that vote was vigorously tabulated with the rest of the votes.


If you did not get a newsletter I cannot help that now. I do not handle the newsletter distribution but  I will make sure you receive the next newsletter. Please send me an email with your email address to: rfrogner@earthlink.net and I will insure that you are on the email list for the newsletter and received the next publication.

"As of this moment, the NCS site still has no mention of this 100-point business, and nobody saw fit to post it here.  So how was anybody to know?"

The NCS website has not been updated yet. The revised rules will be published in the next High/Low Landings as stated in the last issue. I do not control the website but will see that it is updated.

I posted the updated rules in my earlier post even though this forum is not necessarily the correct place to post rules before they are published in the NCS newsletter. I posted them here anyway to clarify questions raised in this thread. Your welcome.

One last comment. If you want to fly nostalgia and benefit from the 100 point bonus you will have to have some sort of documentation to show the model is a pre 1978 design. That's the way it is. If you flew a modified combat cat with a mustang fuselage and your own stab and elevator prior to 1978 then you have to prove it. I'm sure the guy next to you on the flight line will want to see something that dates the model just as you would want the him to do the same. The spirit of the event and the rule is to encourage older model designs. Have fun but realize that the other competitors deserve proof that the model is pre 1978.

This confirms my original premise: Just because it is an old design and you hang a hook on it doesn't necessarily qualify it as an historical model even if you know it was flown back in the day. You have to have some sort of documentation to prove it. Thanks for clearing that up Bob.

Here's our reading lesson for the day. The rules, as posted above, say:

"A bonus of 100 points will be awarded for models which were designed, published, or kitted prior to January 1, 1978."

Do you see "fly" anywhere in there? Does it say "contest" anywhere in there? Does it say "travel to a contest" in there? What I see with my eyes is:

"Designed, published, or kitted"

That was easy, wasn't it!!!

Guess he didn't see the list that Tom has of the designs on his CD that is available thru him.  Find the one you want and if not available commercially, take it to Fedex or Kinkos and have it enlarged.  I have my G-S Bearcat ready to go again with an original Super Tigre .35 I got years ago.  Just need to practice.

The issue isn't the designs that are on the CD (which I have). It is on non-carrier planes that were designed before 1978. As has been previously posted out of context: "A bonus of 100 points will be awarded to models that were designed, published, or kitted prior to 1978". This is taken by some to mean that any pre-1978 design is eligible for these points, even if as originally designed, it was never intended for carrier.     

This takes us back to where we started from. Nothing I have read so far has shown me that non-carrier designs should be eligible for the 100 pt Historical Model Bonus. To convert any of these designs you would have to modify them illegaly:

"5.1 Modifications: No modifications to the original design are permitted"
      Ringmasters, Flite Streaks etc. were not originally designed with a throttle or hook.
Speaking of hooks:
"5.2 Allowable Modifications:..."
"5.2.5 Tailhook and its location may be changed"
     Changed, not added. You can't change something that was never there in the first place. This rules out the non-carrier designs for the historical bonus points even if they were flown as carrier planes during the era. I believe the author's use of the word "changed" instead of "added" is intentional. One of the intents of the event is to encourage the building of historically significant carrier models. There is no way that a slow-combat plane or sport/stunt design with a throttle and hook should be considered a historic carrier model regardless of when they were built.
The rules could be easily amended to allow those non-carrier designs to be eligible for the 100 pt bonus. But for now, if you want the points IMO, better buy the CD and stick with a real historic design. 

First of all why would you want to fly a ringmaster or flight streak?  If I am going to go to the trouble to build a Nostalgia model then I will be d@#%ed if I am going to build something like that

"5.2.5 Tailhook and its location may be changed"

Im no English or grammar expert but the way I read this specific sentence is that the TAIL HOOK could be changed, and/or the location of the tail hook. To me that first part could mean that if it was added that is a CHANGE. 

I think it was said in an earlier post that the best evidence is if you have a pic of it when you flew it.

Since everybody keeps bringing up OTS then how about this,  would you show up to fly OTS with a Sterling Guardian?

I dont think so!

If it didn't have a tail hook to start with, how  can it be changed or altered?

FYI    Stopping forward movement (stopping) or backing up is instant disqualification and has never been allowed,ever.   Mike

In my (doesn't mean a thing) opinion the only airplanes that should be allowed to have sliders are the two top classes. They don't belong in profile period.

In my (doesn't mean a thing) opinion the only airplanes that should be allowed to have sliders are the two top classes. They don't belong in profile period.

RIGHT ON.  
Of course with the current management it won't happen.

Nostalgia classes give those of us who agree the opportunity to abandon slide and hover carrier and fly models that fly like airplanes.
--------------------
I have an analog clock over my workbench.  One minute is about 3.8" wide.  The hands never stop moving.  Some people might think they can see the hands move.  Honestly, they look stopped to me.  That pretty much sums up why some people, like me, believe that "modern" carrier judgement of low speed is so subjective that there should be no records.

That sound like it could be correct.  
So Profile carrier lasted from 1967 through 1975.  I flew it at The Nats in 70 and 75.  On January 1, 1976, it definately went to the "slide & hover" rules and got rid of virtually everybody who flew the event.

-------------------------

It takes a snail a long time to crawl across an aquarium glass.
An honest man might say, "I can't see that it moving."
Another honest man might say, "yeah, I can see it moving".

Either way, it's a boring show and they don't take action on the Vegas sports book.

------------------
ps:
I saw Rick at our club lunch today.  He was one of the winners who dropped carrier instantly when slide & hover took over.

Well lets see now, that is just about 35 years ago! You would think folks would have gotten over a few rule changes by now but I guess not. I wonder if the stunt guys whine about the "new" pattern with all those hard maneuvers like the four leaf clover and having to fly up side down!
 

In 1989 that 50 number had dropped to less than 20. Something happened. What?  More importantly how can we settle differences and get the number back up.  From personal experience there really is a growing trend if replies to the Postal Carrier Contest are an indication.  All sections of the U.S. have sent in inquires except the NW. The potentiality for growth is there (here?). Confrontation about "who shot John" gains nothing.  It is time for constructive work on solving the  situation is now in our hands.  If it takes a committee outside of the NCS or in it, working with non members, so be it.  With dwindling time left for many of us, it is time now to get to work, or watch the event become a distant memory.
There's the challenge. Shall we open a new thread on this?, I'm willing.

Joe Just