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Author Topic: Fuel Rules Question  (Read 1021 times)

Offline bdt-m

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Fuel Rules Question
« on: April 23, 2023, 06:02:06 PM »
Rule 3.4.1:
"The length of the passage through which the exhaust exits the
engine may not be longer than three inches measured from the
centerline of the engine cylinder along the centerline of the exhaust
passage. Exhaust ducting beyond the 3-inch limit is permitted
provided that there are at least 1/8-inch clearance at all points
between the additional ducting and the exhaust extension attached
to the motor. Fuel of standard formula shall be supplied by the
contest organizers. The percentages of ingredients in the fuel
mixture supplied must be accurate, consistent with careful and
accurate mixing techniques. The fuel shall contain 10%
nitromethane, 20% lubricant, and 70% methanol by volume. If the
contestant uses this fuel, the length of the passage through which
the exhaust exits the engine is not restricted. The engines used
must be of the reciprocating internal combustion or jet type.
Neither rocket power nor auxiliary takeoff booster devices are
permitted in any case. Noise abatement regulations do not apply"

Questions: Since it states "If the contestant uses this fuel"....does that mean any fuel can be used besides the provided mixture?

Thanks


Offline katana

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2023, 03:10:13 AM »
The way I read it is . . . . . you can use your own fuel, but if you do, it must be mixed in same proportions noted and you will have to comply with the silencer restriction stated higher up. The rules don't mention what oil is used in the std mix, so I guess that may determine whether a competitor wanted to use it or not? Obviously the rules don't even consider the use of diesels LOL!

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2023, 07:04:25 AM »
I have never seen a diesel used in carrier. 
If you use one, you can run it without a pipe and use any fuel you want.
For those who use pipes, the event director supplies a jug of 10% nitro fuel.  Oil is not the key issue.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2023, 07:14:08 AM »
Those who run a Nelson engine with the Nelson tuned muffler must use contest supplied 10% fuel. Any open face exhaust set-up may run as much Nitro as desired.

That wording of that rule is convoluted but this is what it means.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2023, 09:32:43 AM »
Those who run a Nelson engine with the Nelson tuned muffler must use contest supplied 10% fuel. Any open face exhaust set-up may run as much Nitro as desired.

That wording of that rule is convoluted but this is what it means.

"Any open face exhaust set-up may run as much Nitro as desired"...that is how I understand the rule as well, thanks to everyone for all the replies.


Offline john vlna

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2023, 09:04:54 AM »
By the way, at the Brodak Flyin (see the announcement At Brodak.com) we ask that everyone in carrier use a max of 10% nitro. I have no way to check a contestant's fuel, so it is an honor system

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2023, 02:07:02 PM »
By the way, at the Brodak Flyin (see the announcement At Brodak.com) we ask that everyone in carrier use a max of 10% nitro. I have no way to check a contestant's fuel, so it is an honor system



« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:10:06 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2023, 02:23:10 PM »
I would not limit the fuel contestant use; they should have a choice to pick the type to use, especially since AMA rules allow the choice. The idea I would think is to encompass as many participants as possible, not limit entries by imposing restrictive limits.

Offline david smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2023, 12:41:04 AM »
Would that not be an offense against those who wish to fly AMA Profile, Class I and Class II and try to set a record.

Not to mention 15's, which have already been attacked by electric motors with NO limitations whatsoever?  So a throttled 15, which lives by nitromethane is to be further handicapped vs an totally UNLIMITED electric rig?

First, nobody is showing up with the sole intent to set a record. If you think that you are mistaken. The couple of people that are capable probably wont be there and even then, they don't show up to just set a record. They show up to compete and have a good time, like MOST people.

Second, I will give you this you are consistent on your opinion of electrics having no limitations and you are still wrong, just like you were almost 15 years ago in some of the posts I was looking at the other day. They very much do have limitations if you would look at the rules. They are by weight and that works pretty well. I have yet to see scores that are astronomically higher than glow powered scores. From what I have seen they are close to even for the people that are at the top but most of the time they fall short. So unless we get that big breakthrough in battery technology that people like you have been saying was coming any day for the last 20 years(which probably wont happen until there aren't any more controline flyers) I think it will be ok.

Just bring something and fly and try to have fun. I am just trying to get complete airplanes together to be able to fly something.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2023, 10:13:27 AM »
Excuse my lack of knowledge on electrics, as well as current gas-powered models. It would seem to me mixing both into one is not wise; two totally different technologies.

My other concern is the lack of clarity of classes, rules and model requirements to participate. Having a possibly new interest in carrier; it has been quite a challenge to track down a clear set of rules, scoring structure, and bonus points for all classes...official (AMA) as well as non-official like Nostalgic.

Don't understand how we can expect carrier to grow or even maintain itself without clarity, rule definitions, and a working NCS site that is easily accessible to the average person who has an interest in participating in carrier events.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2023, 11:00:33 AM »
Excuse my lack of knowledge on electrics, as well as current gas-powered models. It would seem to me mixing both into one is not wise; two totally different technologies.

.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:09:44 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2023, 11:09:53 AM »
By the way, at the Brodak Flyin (see the announcement At Brodak.com) we ask that everyone in carrier use a max of 10% nitro. I have no way to check a contestant's fuel, so it is an honor system
« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:09:20 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline david smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2023, 02:42:15 PM »
Excuse my lack of knowledge on electrics, as well as current gas-powered models. It would seem to me mixing both into one is not wise; two totally different technologies.

My other concern is the lack of clarity of classes, rules and model requirements to participate. Having a possibly new interest in carrier; it has been quite a challenge to track down a clear set of rules, scoring structure, and bonus points for all classes...official (AMA) as well as non-official like Nostalgic.

Don't understand how we can expect carrier to grow or even maintain itself without clarity, rule definitions, and a working NCS site that is easily accessible to the average person who has an interest in participating in carrier events.

Please don't let Paul's negative attitude deter you. His assumptions on electrics are incorrect and he doesn't want to listen to the people that actually know what they are talking about. If you have questions or are confused or need help please reach out.

 The rules for all official events are on the ama website  https://www.modelaircraft.org/events/competition-resources/competition-regulations. That is Profile, Class 1, and Class 2, Glow and electric. The only rules that aren't posted are for the unofficial events ie 15, Sportsman, NWS 40, Skyray, and Nostalgia however a quick search on here will find most of those. The website issue is being worked on, Bill Calkins was the one that handled the website and unfortunately after he passed away the website shut down. Up until that point there was a working website with all info.

On the mixing of glow and electric typically they dont run head to head they usually do a record ratio based on previous top 20 scores.

It comes down to practicing with what you have and taking all input for improvements. I would love to talk to you at Brodaks if you will be there I will be the one (hopefully, if I can get it done) with the obnoxiously loud twin for Class 1.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2023, 02:55:11 PM »
Piston engines and electric motors are two different things.
Keeping them separate is not "negative" it is just plain correct.
The current AMA Rules are correct.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:09:01 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline david smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2023, 03:40:26 PM »
Piston engines and electric motors are two different things.
Keeping them separate is not "negative" it is just plain correct.
The current AMA Rules are correct.

The only issue is electric guys trying to weasel their way into a piston event with highly restrictive engine rules, namely 15 Carrier, which requires very small engines that are very difficult to throttle reliably.

At a recent contest the reigning "electric king" showed up.  He routinely did over 100 MPH in each class with low speeds over five minutes, thereby extending the records that already held.  He opened an envelope with pre-printed AMA Record forms and filled in the date and his latest scores.  Piston engine carrier is not so simple.  He's welcome to his electric records.  He's NOT welcome to intrude in piston engine events.

Yet again you see what you want. As far as I know 15 has a weight limit of 2 or 2.5 lb, hence the 25 lb pull test for all, the advantage would be to a high powered lightweight glow plane because there is only so much power you can get with that weight limit for electric.

I wouldn't call him the electric king i would call him the carrier king because he has dominated carrier in general for a long time. Do you know how? He puts a lot of time and effort into being good just like anything in life you aren't going to step into something and be the best right away, it takes practice and dedication. I don't see it as unfair I see it as a goal to shoot for.
 
I cant speak to the envelope with the forms but if he did then he was confident of his and his planes abilities because he has practiced, a lot, and knew what he was capable of. He is probably the only one of the about 2 people in the country capable of setting a record that would do that, but I definitely would not hold that against him, I respect the confidence and ability.

 There is no excuse or reason for someone else to not be capable of the same thing.


Offline bdt-m

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2023, 09:50:26 AM »
"Electric King", "Carrier King"; who is the crowned Chosen One?

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2023, 11:49:48 AM »
"Electric King", "Carrier King"; who is the crowned Chosen One?

« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:08:09 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2023, 12:21:17 PM »
Peter "Electric King' & Burton "Carrier King"...looks like two hard working & deserving competitors. Having pre-printed record sheets shows confidence & efficiency in processing. My congratulations to both!

The Nat's turnout is dismal, actually sad. Not like back in the day when to win any class from Jr. to Sr. to Op. you needed to beat dozens & dozens of entries, Op. +60 entrants. One point that makes me hesitant to compete in Carrier, is the very low entries, in some cases 2-3; feels like you're only competing against yourself. Then again; this is just me talking.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel Rules Question
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2023, 01:17:40 PM »
Peter "Electric King' & Burton "Carrier King"...looks like two hard working & deserving competitors. Having pre-printed record sheets shows confidence & efficiency in processing. My congratulations to both!

The Nat's turnout is dismal, actually sad. Not like back in the day when to win any class from Jr. to Sr. to Op. you needed to beat dozens & dozens of entries, Op. +60 entrants. One point that makes me hesitant to compete in Carrier, is the very low entries, in some cases 2-3; feels like you're only competing against yourself. Then again; this is just me talking.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:07:11 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith


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