Author Topic: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events. (Read 1569 times)

Douglas Ames · « **on:** November 05, 2009, 09:48:51 PM »

I read Competitors are flying Electric motors in the .15 class. Why no 4-strokes?
That would be a .25 max displ. (60%)
HP engines makes a HP VT .25 with shaft drive/ rotary valves (sold by MECOA), which would be legal displ.
If Electric motors are OK, why not a 4-stroke that meets the 60% rule?

Just what are the rules on Electric motors? Why no Diesels?

Paul Smith · « **Reply #1 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:42:53 AM »

Four-strokes are getting better and the 60% rule has gone by the wayside.

As I see it, you can use a .1525 cubic inch glow, 2-stroke, 4-stoke, or diesel, or use two (or more) such engines up to .20.

However, if you use any pistion engine, you will be beaten by electric motors which are TOTALLY UNLIMITED as to size and power and which have NO CHANCE of flaming out on low speed. This why I NEVER enter a carrier contest that mixes piston and electric in the same event.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #2 on:** November 06, 2009, 07:30:28 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on November 06, 2009, 05:42:53 AM

Four-strokes are getting better and the 60% rule has gone by the wayside.

As I see it, you can use a .1525 cubic inch glow, 2-stroke, 4-stoke, or diesel, or use two (or more) such engines up to .20.

However, if you use any pistion engine, you will be beaten by electric motors which are TOTALLY UNLIMITED as to size and power and which have NO CHANCE of flaming out on low speed. This why I NEVER enter a carrier contest that mixes piston and electric in the same event.

The 60% rule is still in the carrier rules posted on the AMA site but 15 being a local event, guess whoever is running the contest can make the call.

catdaddy · « **Reply #3 on:** November 06, 2009, 07:56:42 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on November 06, 2009, 05:42:53 AM

Four-strokes are getting better and the 60% rule has gone by the wayside.

As I see it, you can use a .1525 cubic inch glow, 2-stroke, 4-stoke, or diesel, or use two (or more) such engines up to .20.

However, if you use any pistion engine, you will be beaten by electric motors which are TOTALLY UNLIMITED as to size and power and which have NO CHANCE of flaming out on low speed. This why I NEVER enter a carrier contest that mixes piston and electric in the same event.

Hmmm...I think I'll build me an electric to take to the Brodak

Peter Mazur · « **Reply #4 on:** November 06, 2009, 08:44:22 AM »

The 60% rule for four-strokes is, indeed, in the AMA rules, and, since the .15 rules start out by saying that AMA Profile rules apply except as listed, then the 60% rule applies to the .15's as well, unless the CD posts a different rule in the contest information in advance. (Nobody ever fiddles with that rule, as far as I know.)
And don't worry about electrics wiping out gas powered carrier in competition anytime soon. I'm working very hard at it and know it will not keep up with presend-day gas models. The match is good in speed limit events, where the lack of power in electrics is not a problem. Unfortunately, so far, I have had more flameouts with electric than with gas in competition over the last two years. But this is a bit off topic, so I'll stop. Sorry.
Pete

bfrog · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2009, 09:25:58 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on November 06, 2009, 05:42:53 AM

Four-strokes are getting better and the 60% rule has gone by the wayside.

As I see it, you can use a .1525 cubic inch glow, 2-stroke, 4-stoke, or diesel, or use two (or more) such engines up to .20.

However, if you use any pistion engine, you will be beaten by electric motors which are TOTALLY UNLIMITED as to size and power and which have NO CHANCE of flaming out on low speed. This why I NEVER enter a carrier contest that mixes piston and electric in the same event.

If you read the rules the 60% diesel rule should apply since it is in the general rules referenced by the 15 carrier rules. I don’t see why you could not use a diesel engine. My only thought is I don’t know how well a diesel would react to the throttle response needed for carrier events.

As far a unlimited power this is just not the case. There is a weight limit on the airplane in the 15 electric rules which effectively limits how much power you have in an electric. You cannot just put on an huge battery and “unlimited” motor or you will be over the weight limit. In addition, 15 is a speed limit event, 70 mph max, unlimited power does not gain you a thing. There are numerous glow engines that can reach the 70 mph limit with a good airplane.

Flameouts are different problem. Yes they can happen with a glow engine. If they do, you find the problem and fix it. It doesn’t seem to be a problem for people like Eric, Burt or Jim who all are at the top of the NCS top twenty in 15 carrier this year (and last year and the year before that!). Flame outs do not happen with electrics but you can have other problems that are just as bad. Low battery and the motor cuts out, loose wires that cut the motor power, low temperatures that limit the battery’s ability to put out good power, ESC problems, the list can go on. It is just like glow engines in that you have many factors that can cause problems is flight. The challenge is to work out these problems and have a good high, low and landing.

If you don’t like electrics don’t fly them but please don’t trash talk without understanding the rules and the limitations of the events. Writing false and incorrect statements just prevents others from understanding the events and keeps them from getting involved. The intent here is to encourage new flyers and new entries not to make things more difficult.

eric conley · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2009, 11:43:45 AM »

About 7 or 8 years ago I had a OS-21-FS powered .15 carrier plane that I campaigned. As I remember my scores were between 200 and 230 which in this day would not be good enough. The problem was it would never reach the 70mph maximum (it turned anywhere between 58mph to the low 60s) speed so I was never able to take full advantage of the set up. It was nice and quiet and handled well but as to a competitive plane it fell short. Eric

bfrog · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2009, 03:14:06 PM »

I must correct something from my last post. There is consideration given in the general rules for 4 stroke engines, not for diesels. Four strokes are rated at 60% of thier displacement. Diesels are not mentioned or given any offset for displacement.

Bob

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2009, 11:42:20 PM »

I was curious about Diesels (not just .15 class but also I & II, and Profile) because of the rules on fuel, Contest fuel vs. Home brew.
Contest fuel is specified in the AMA rules (unlimited exhaust) but not home brew if you have a 3" exhaust or less. A Diesel of equal displ will put out more torque than glow so prop selection would be critical. I don't see why you couldn't enter a Diesel in any AMA class as long as the exhaust rule is in place. Wether or not it would be competitive is another debate ...Nor does the rules specify fuel type for "Jets"?

When I first started my Corsair in `07 I was under the impression the .15 class was a novice event with simple rules on engines and airframes. Now it's morphed into rear exhaust combat engines and non-Naval aircraft models. Rats...at least it will look good.

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2009, 11:57:49 PM »

The rules state that a contest supplied fuel be 10 Nitro, 20 Oil and 70 methanol and IF YOU USE that fuel, you can use any exhaust length. If you run a diesel, you can run any fuel you wish, but since you probably won't want to use the contest supplied fuel, you are limited to the 3 inch exhaust rule.

As for .15 ''morphing", that was a LONG time ago. The rear exhaust engines have been the standard since day one in .15 and non scale planes have outnumbered the scale-like ones also since day one. But I would encourage you to finish your corsair and get it flying. It is much more fun than NOT flying anything and you would be surprised how well a scale-like plane can be made to fly.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2009, 09:43:14 AM »

I flew a diesel .15 carrier one year just for grins. It was and is powered with a PAW 2.5. Mix my own fuel. But, it needs a head wind to get airborne. Following Dr. Diesels instructions it flew well in low speed. Still will not keep up with Nelson's, Rossi's and the other high performance engines. As Eric says it was fun to fly.

PS:One of the Dallas crew did fly a four stroke in .25 carrier, can't remember the engine, but the guy did well with it. jeh

PPS: I hate these keyboards. Would have been done typing a long time ago. jh

Author Topic: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events. (Read 1569 times)

Douglas Ames

Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

Paul Smith

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

Bob Reeves

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

catdaddy

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

Peter Mazur

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

bfrog

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

eric conley

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

bfrog

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

Douglas Ames

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

Mike Anderson

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.

john e. holliday

Re: Engine rules interpretation - NCS .15 Carrier and other local events.