Author Topic: Electric rules (Read 2673 times)

john e. holliday · « **on:** October 10, 2011, 09:04:13 AM »

I know the guys have been playing/competing with electric for several years now, but over in the rules section Brett Buck is making a rule proposal for stunt on the start up and end of flight problems with stunt flying. He talks about an arming switched to control the problem of accidental start up of a motor. Main thing is having planes restrain when the arming switch is activated. Is there such a problem in carrier flying? I know at the start of a flight the plane is held by an assistant/helper. But, when the flight is over the helper usually retreives the plane and returns it to the pits. Once in the pits is the plane left alone without removing the power source? I really want to know if there is a chance for an electric plane to start up in the pits with no one near it???

Peter Mazur · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2011, 10:31:27 AM »

All the electric carrier fliers I know about use an arming switch of some kind. When the airplane lands, the very first thing the pit crew does is disarm the power, even before picking the airplane up. It may be that some of the stunt guys leave off the arming switch to save a little weight and to not disturb the clean lines of their nice looking airplane. I don't think carrier fliers are quite so picky about either of these things. In addition, we bring the airplane to the deck with it disarmed because having a "live" airplane would cause all sorts of trouble if the handle were to be disturbed during the setup. It's really a bit hard to imagine carrier guys not using an arming switch. Adding a rule for carrier to require an arming switch would not be a problem for the contestants, unless it were written badly. For the contest officials it would add one more thing they would have to check, and they probably wouldn't look forward to that.
Pete

eric david conley · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2011, 10:37:28 AM »

At this time I think they are very necessary for safety. Where to put them is the question. I have placed both of mine at the trailing edge of the outside wing panel near the fuselage where they are easy to see and easy to get to. This placement does add resistance to the circuit (wire length) so if I can find a way to move it forward I will but wont go forward of the wing leading edge (that is to close to the prop on carrier planes). With the long nose on the stunt planes it may be better to have the circuit breaker forword of the leading edge of the wing? My #3 plugs are a little hard to pull out so it is best if you are pulling away from the prop. Then there is the part about having a pit person that FULLY understands the use of the plug before and after the flight.
I had a plug on my first e-profile and on one of the very first flights I demonstrated the use of the plug to my launcher/retriever and notice he was a little on overload when I got to unplugging after the flight. Sooo I told him not to worry that I would remind him to pull the plug when he retrieved the plane. Well guess what, I forgot to tell him and as he was setting the plane on the ground in the pit area the lines went tight just as the plane touched the ground nose first. The motor, motor mount, and a section of the nose tore loose and landed about ten feet from the plane. That would never have happened with a IC plane. Electrics are different and need to be handled differently. I've posted two pictures of my e-carrier planes showing the location of my breakers on the trailing edge of the wing. The female receptacle that is mounted on the trailing edge comes directly from the hot side of the battery. The red wire from the ESC is then plugged into the receptacle to complete the circuit. Eric

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2011, 10:57:10 AM »

I've been flying electric RC for years, while sticking (mostly for financial reasons) to slime power for CL. So I've been watching the greater debate with interest (and trying hard to neither be pro or con at this point, although I agree with Brett that a plane shouldn't ever be connected up unless it's restrained from moving in some way).

In RC, folks usually start out small, and so their first lesson in the value of paying close attention to when the system is powered comes when they get medium-sized cuts from a small propeller. The "don't power up until you really need to" habit becomes so ingrained that you don't think about it -- you just do it.

To the point where it took a guy who only flies big planes, converting to electric with a six pound, undersized, overpowered monster of a plane to make us realize. The realization came when we watched him connect up his 7S pack, then spend the next five minutes putting on the bottom wing, unconcernedly getting his nice soft unprotected forearms inside of the propeller arc innumerable times before he finished, hoisted his plane upright, and went to fly.

The club prez and I had a nice little chat with him about safety and the wisdom of tempting the products of the APC Steak Knife Company, etc.

(Note that our club prez also likes to fly big planes, and has done the rest of us the service of tangling with an electric motor, and gotten the trademark parallel slashes on his forearm to show so that we will all think harder before we get in range of the prop).

Once you adjust for the handle vs. transmitter difference, you carrier guys (at least he two who have answered) have exactly the same attitude that the RC guys do, even more than the CLPA guys.

john vlna · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2011, 12:51:18 PM »

I think an arming switch is a good idea. Anytime the battery is connected the motor can start. An arming switch is sensible to insure the battery is not connected until absolutely needed.

I instruct my helpers to always treat an electric as if it is running, armed or not.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2011, 03:09:19 PM »

The CL scale models I fly with electric power (JR radio with DSC connection) I have an arming switch between the reciever and the speed control. I can plug the battery to the speed control but until the arming switch is turned "On" the speed control not operate. When I plug the battery in I get the first beep that the speed control has battery power. When I turn the arming switch on it now has everything it needs to operate and get a second beep. If I lose any connection between the DSC cord and the insulated lines the speed control will shut down. If the arming switch is turned off it will shut down.

I think the arming switch is a very good idea and connect the battery at the last minute and then turn "on" the arming switch when everything is setup and ready to fly.

Fred C.

john vlna · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2011, 04:52:04 PM »

Fred,
I do the same thing ,but still think an arming switch is a good idea. The rc guys tell me that the transmitter should be on before battery is applied to the motor. Although the esc shouldn't come on another transmitter or RFI signal could turn it on. For CL at least wired systems this is less likely, but an esc without a control signal and power to the motor could malfunction and turn on.

bfrog · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2011, 05:28:38 PM »

I think it is important to note that the the arming switch/plug must be one of the battery leads. I know that you can use a much smaller switch or plug on the signal leads from the timer to the ESC but that really isn't fail safe. I have read of others taking this path and do not think it is an acceptable way to go. It is imperative that at least one of the primary battery leads is broken with the arming plug.

I also second the notion that the pilot has good communication with the helper and reminds them to "arm" the airplane and upon landing remind them to pull the plug as quickly as possible. Anyone that is new to E-flight should be instructed before handling the plane of the basics of the arming system.

Even my 15 sized carrier plane that puts out over 1/2 HP can make a nasty scene if it is not handled carefully. Have you ever wanted to challenge a 1/2 HP food processor? It's not recommended.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #8 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:20:39 PM »

I do not fly E-Navy Carrier but have been involved from the beginning by providing the U/Tronics Control single channel unit that most use to control the speed of the electric motor.

Attached is a drawing of how it should be hooked up.
Note the arming plug and the Starting Sequence instructions to start the model.

The Full Power switch in the upper left corner would be good to assure that you are maintaining Full Throttle during the High Speed section of the flight. Switch open for Max power. If you do not want the switch, move the top wire to the center tap on the Pot.
Clancy

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:47:46 PM »

Real Carrier airplanes don't need no stinkin batteries

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #10 on:** October 11, 2011, 06:06:33 PM »

Bob,
Did you have any electric powered planes on the Carriers you were stationed on? I didn't see any on the Enterprise.......

Jim

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #11 on:** October 11, 2011, 06:17:06 PM »

Quote from: Jim Oliver on October 11, 2011, 06:06:33 PM

Did you have any electric powered planes on the Carriers you were stationed on? I didn't see any on the Enterprise.......

While you're thinking, did you see any powered by two-strokes?

eric david conley · « **Reply #12 on:** October 11, 2011, 06:58:06 PM »

Thank you Tim.

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2011, 07:48:09 PM »

Tim,

No two strokes, or four strokes either, for that matter......

Jim

john e. holliday · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2011, 08:07:27 AM »

You trying to tell m that the prop jobs were not four strokes?

??

bill bischoff · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2011, 10:17:59 AM »

I think the implication is that they were all jets by then. Could be wrong...?

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2011, 10:46:53 AM »

Well, by the time of my last cruise (John F. Kennedy - 1970-71) there were only the S2F "Stoof" used as cod planes (which used a radial engine). The only prop driven planes left after that were the E2 Hawkeyes but they used turbo-prop engines, which are not piston-pounders.

On my first cruise we had the 4-seat ECM versions of the Skyraider (AE-1F) still in use but those were phased out before the 1970 cruise.

So, no after 1976 (when the S2F's were retired) there were no 2-stroke OR 4-stroke driven planes on board the carriers.

All of which is way off the original topic of 'arming switches', for which I apologize.

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2011, 11:08:54 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on October 10, 2011, 09:04:13 AM

..... Is there such a problem in carrier flying? I know at the start of a flight the plane is held by an assistant/helper. But, when the flight is over the helper usually retreives the plane and returns it to the pits. Once in the pits is the plane left alone without removing the power source? I really want to know if there is a chance for an electric plane to start up in the pits with no one near it???

To get back to John's original question:

Yes, I don't know of anyone who DOESN'T use some form of arming/disarming. In addition,most of us actually using electric in Carrier have boiled it down to a very specific and repeatable procedure - which keeps the battery disconnected (via the arming mechanism) until just before takeoff and the first move after the flight ends is to disarm the system again. I would NEVER leave an 'ARMED' model sitting either in the circle or in the pits because of the danger of the lines or handle being moved/tripped over/kicked which would cause the motor to spool up. I would also recommend against merely removing the throttle signal from the ESC and make the the system actually break the battery connection, 'just in case'. I would have no problem with the rules stating that these procedures are mandatory.

In actual practice, the normal routine for most is to remove the battery as soon as the model is back in the pits anyway - we like to check our batteries to see if they are warm, and get them out for cooling purposes.

dankar · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2011, 11:36:20 AM »

Maybe I have it wrong but Carrier planes had fuel driven IC engines, even a Jet is IC. No pistons but blades are driven by internal combustion correct? Only Jet that hovers is Harrier type jets> No electric hover craft they use today in Carrier models. We had a local RC flyer show up with a couple lectric zoomers in car. He got out to walk around when someone on flight line fires up to fly. Guess what happened next?? Correct one of his planes was armed and ready to go on same freq. Like a contained buzz saw ate up both his planes in short order. It took about a minute to sort out what was going on. Thank God no one was in the car. Flyer made a bad mistake when he had plane ready to go and armed. Dan

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2011, 11:51:33 AM »

Nobody mentioned internal combustion --