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Author Topic: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018  (Read 708 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« on: October 07, 2018, 11:53:03 AM »
It went well, thanks to Bob Heywood and has staff.  Temperature peaked at 87, bone dry and no wind.  I'll leave it to Bob to detail the scores and get all the names spelled correctly.

By my count there were five Carrier flyers. 
I recorded improved scores in four events without mishap.
Pete Mazur flew all three AMA-E classes and may have improved one of the records he holds.  All three of his E-carrier MO-1's do about 100 high and 5 MPH low.
Paul Smith


Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 05:44:20 PM »
Thanks for your update Paul. You had a good day. I and Gary Hull enjoyed it. Thanks to Bob Heywood for putting it all together.
Wayne
Wayne Buran
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Offline T.J. Vieira

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2018, 06:29:40 AM »
nice meeting you this weekend!  I may need to build a bird to compete next year..

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 06:58:24 AM »
I haven't got the pictures shrunk down to under one megaton each yet, but I'll post a few as I go along.

Pull testing is one of the most dramatic parts of Carrier.  Note two men on the scale.  The pilot must pull the model single-handedly. 
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 06:59:54 AM »
Trade secret revealed.

Note the sliding battery rack which moves the CG aft along with the leadouts.  Also the (not so secret) jump buster.

1948 USAF marking may put his record in question.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 09:08:46 AM »
Ben Ruggiero let me have some stick time with his Frank Scott designed Vought XF5U-1...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 09:10:33 AM »
Clean approach...50 pointer...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 03:51:51 PM »
Trade secret revealed.

.....

1948 USAF marking may put his record in question.

Why?   

"A scale model of a carrier aircraft of any nation, provided it displays the
national markings of the using nation, shall receive bonus points. ..."

Doesn't say "NAVY" markings.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2018, 04:35:49 PM »
Mike, thats typical Paul Smith humor. Thanks for the pictures. Nice landing Heywood. Like the "Good Old Days".
Wayne
Wayne Buran
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Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 06:15:49 PM »
Ben Ruggiero let me have some stick time with his Frank Scott designed Vought XF5U-1...

OH Man --Now I have to get mine out and fix it up for next year.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2018, 06:40:11 AM »
Mike, that's typical Paul Smith humor.
Wayne

Correct.  My MO-1 has US markings on one side and French on the other. 
Still, Pete should have popped for some time-correct markings. 
Modern USAF wings on an MO-1?
Paul Smith

Online JoeJust

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2018, 09:46:39 AM »
Interesting point Paul. Without taking sides on this perhaps we should open the question here and have a non binding vote.  Here in my humble opinion is how that voting should occur.  PM me with a yes or no vote on Paul's opinion, and I will pass the voting on without any names. Or, we could just open the voting here with comments. Your choice guys.
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2018, 01:24:29 PM »
This needs to stop here and now! This discussion has nothing to do with our contest. We had a great day and everyone went away feeling good about Navy Carrier. Please leave it at that!

Bob Heywood
President, Navy Carrier Society
"Clockwise Forever..."

Online JoeJust

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2018, 01:30:34 PM »
Anyone else?
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2018, 02:06:37 PM »
Interesting point Paul. Without taking sides on this perhaps we should open the question here and have a non binding vote.  Here in my humble opinion is how that voting should occur.  PM me with a yes or no vote on Paul's opinion, and I will pass the voting on without any names. Or, we could just open the voting here with comments. Your choice guys.
Joe

Come on, I'm just pulling your chain.  Any markings will do. 
Somebody gave me some jive about the Irish markings on my 15 job so I added a Navy star to cover myself.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2018, 03:59:47 PM »
Gary Hull's Profile with Wayne Buran crewing...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Online JoeJust

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2018, 04:25:26 PM »
Anyone else?
Joe
OK, Let's just drop it, OK?
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2018, 06:35:09 PM »
Ben Ruggiero with his OS Max III powered Nostalgia Profile Brodak (GS) Skyraider...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2018, 04:29:18 AM »
Good way to start. Keep on practicing.
Wayne
Wayne Buran
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 07:59:00 AM »
I see that scores are already up on NCS Top 20.

There are a few new numbers & names from Dayton, thank you.

I posted a number for NWS 40, but not quite as high as I wanted.
Paul Smith

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 10:42:54 AM »
I see that scores are already up on NCS Top 20.

There are a few new numbers & names from Dayton, thank you.

I posted a number for NWS 40, but not quite as high as I wanted.


So I would assume if all the reports are in that those listed are the only current Navy Carrier participants in the country. Ouch, thats really bad when you remove duplications. Talk about a dying event.
Wayne

Wayne Buran
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North Coast Controliners


"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well!

Online JoeJust

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 07:15:44 PM »
Wayne, Not as bad as one might think. I have sold 200 Carrier kits we designed and built.  In that group mot that have contacted me really enjoyed having fun with them, but in just one or two cases has any of that 200 guys ever appeared in any "Top 20" listing.  Digging deeper I have discovered that most of these people don't want to compete, or don't want to have much to do with all the classes that the NCS offers. The four years that I held a "Postal" contest were well attended, and by in large the prizes went to those same folks. I have a limited time left, so I really don't want to get involved in PI$$ing contests with anyone, but for the umpteeth time I will again go an record saying SOMEBODY has to reinvent the wheel concerning Navy Carrier  Here we have a dozen or so events available and we are shrinking. In England and the Continent there are just two events and hey are growing in numbers with some really intriguing and innovating planes.
This is the very last time I will write about these concerns.

Joe Just
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2018, 11:31:33 AM »
I quit worrying about the top twenty when several years I was flying never got mentioned when only 10 or 15 people were recorded.   The ne I am enjoying now is not a world beater and will probably never helicopter round the circle.   It goes faster on high speed than on low speed.  Still getting used to the RC control system.  Yes, in my opinion there are too many carrier classes.   The British have simplified the deck set up and only two classes of carrier.   hey also have a couple of odd ball designs.    S?P
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline eric david conley

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2018, 01:17:02 PM »
     Did you get ahold of the CD to see if it had been called into the NCS? Yes, the EU carrier guys are having a great time with their carrier events (all 2 of them). The most fun is their BC (Basic Carrier) event which is like our AMA Profile class. Their carrier planes are very different than ours and are evolving at a fast pace with no end in sight. They live in a very different world than ours.
Eric

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 05:34:31 PM »
The Dayton score are already up on NCS.  Bob Heywood is on it like a cat.

There are several new scores & a few new names based on this event.

Paul Smith

Offline Max Uttien

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2018, 03:52:05 AM »
Hello all, Hay Eric;

If any of you decide to come to the Brit Nats in 2019, you can borrow a model from me to fly BCD.
And I'm sure more pilots will do that.

Kind regards;

Max Uttien.
Netherlands


Offline eric david conley

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2018, 10:09:51 AM »
     That is so kind of you Max. I know you have some very competitive planes to fly and will probably have added to them by that contest date. I would love to meet all of the EU carrier fliers along with the Brits as all of you are making great strides in the development of the BCD carrier planes. I find it very fascinating, and innovating, the development work and experimenting that all of you have undertaken with the scores increasing over one hundred points in just the last couple of years. I envy the pictures of the contest in the Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany, and how the caravans, and it looks like camping that go on at these contests. It looks so easy going with many times the time to share all of the new ways to design and build the planes. AND, your score sheets are great with all the detail they provide it is possible to follow trends in equipment and where to look for increased scores.
     Now to address your wonderful offer I'm afraid my days of traveling to contests is pretty much over as is my flying the larger more hyperfoming planes, getting to old and banged up I guess. Thank you for your kind offer and I will keep watching  all of your results and pictures and dreaming of all the neat things that are going on with BCD.
Eric

Online JoeJust

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2018, 09:39:53 AM »
Well Eric, you beat me to it!  I will just ad a "ditto" to your remarks and leave this site today with an additional thought.  The Europeans and the Brits are way ahead of us here in the US. To bad we can't bring ourselves to honestly debate our present position.
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Max Uttien

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2018, 05:47:58 AM »
Hay Eric;

Thank you for your kind words.
I'am mailing around to see how many models can be borrowed for BCD.

Kind regards

Max

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2018, 06:44:59 PM »
Well Eric, you beat me to it!  I will just ad a "ditto" to your remarks and leave this site today with an additional thought.  The Europeans and the Brits are way ahead of us here in the US. To bad we can't bring ourselves to honestly debate our present position.
Joe

I also fly stunt, combat, speed, racing and scale.

As I see it, all categories have a lot of events available, not just carrier. 

Old events get stale when the same person wins all the time.
Quite rightly others quit trying when they see that it's hopeless.
As new equipment comes on the market and old stuff goes away we need to make new events to recognize the reality of the present.
Prime examples of that were Profile & Class I, which were launched in the 60's to deal with the excessive power of 65's and utilize the Supertiger G21/40 and engines like the K&B Greenhead 35RC.

Today, 36's & 40's have gotten out of hand like the 65's of the late 1960's.  It's time to bring 15's and 25's into the mainstream.

I guess Class II will still be in The Book as long as one person wants it.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2018, 08:15:39 AM »
(the law of) diminishing returns:
used to refer to a point at which the level of profits or benefits gained is less than the amount of money or energy invested.


Each of us has a certain level of competitive spirit. There will always be some who, by their very nature, are intensely competitive. As the law of diminishing returns kicks in some will just dig harder than others. The situation is not hopeless, it's simply a matter of personal choice. Also, it's a fools errand to use the rulebook to squelch the competitive spirit. Motivated people will always prevail.

In my mind, the situation we are in is the relationship of the science of aerodynamics and the scoring calculation being used. Basically, scores have not changed hardly at all for more than 20 years. The planes haven't changed either.

The top scores have about a 14:1 or 15:1 ratio between high speed and low speed. Going faster is an option but it's not easy. It takes 8 times the power to double the speed. Good slow speeds are around 7 mph, give or take. That's going to take a complete rethink of the airplane.

I have spent some time running different low speed scoring methods. Nothing so far suits me. The trick is to make for an interesting challenge that will hold up for a few years before the law kicks back in.

"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Max Uttien

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2018, 10:38:47 AM »
Go light.

Kind regards;

Max

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2018, 11:35:35 AM »
(the law of) diminishing returns:
used to refer to a point at which the level of profits or benefits gained is less than the amount of money or energy invested.


Each of us has a certain level of competitive spirit. There will always be some who, by their very nature, are intensely competitive. As the law of diminishing returns kicks in some will just dig harder than others. The situation is not hopeless, it's simply a matter of personal choice. Also, it's a fools errand to use the rulebook to squelch the competitive spirit. Motivated people will always prevail.

In my mind, the situation we are in is the relationship of the science of aerodynamics and the scoring calculation being used. Basically, scores have not changed hardly at all for more than 20 years. The planes haven't changed either.

The top scores have about a 14:1 or 15:1 ratio between high speed and low speed. Going faster is an option but it's not easy. It takes 8 times the power to double the speed. Good slow speeds are around 7 mph, give or take. That's going to take a complete rethink of the airplane.

I have spent some time running different low speed scoring methods. Nothing so far suits me. The trick is to make for an interesting challenge that will hold up for a few years before the law kicks back in.

Bob, your statement leads into the fundamental difference between piston & electric power.

A piston engine that can produce massive power and thus a winning High speed cannot idle very well.  An engine with a reliable idle NEVER has a fantastic high speed.  Thus we have the compromise that makes Carrier an interesting challenge.

On the other hand, it is possible to dump massive amounts of kilowatts into a motor for 18 seconds and still have the ability to actually stop and restart the motor.  At your contest I saw a contestant break 100 MPH six times in a row with three different models and NEVER have a Low speed failure.  I have rarely seen a 100 MPH High with a piston engine that isn't followed by Low speed problems.  Sure, it's happened, but not EVERY time.

With electric the only real challenge is how much hanging, going vertical, and stopping the center judge will tolerate. 

If some guys want fly electric, let 'em, but don't ever say it's fair mix motors with engines.






Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2018, 01:24:15 PM »
I wasn't going to go down that rabbit hole, but...

Glow and electric are combined in .15 and Skyray. For 2018 it looks like a glow powered plane is on top in both classes. But the competing technologies are really quite close. The #2 spot in .15 is electric and only 1.3 points behind. The other thing not shown is that the glow .15 is flown with old school conventional 3-line control and the e .15 is flown with 2.4 / 2- line control. Now, it does take a stout .15 to do the job because of the way the planes are rigged but it can be done. Practice, practice, practice...

P.S. I'm not suggesting in any way that glow and electric be combined in the AMA classes!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 01:46:57 PM by Bob Heywood »
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Dayton Carrier yesterday, Saturday Oct 6, 2018
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2018, 02:24:47 PM »
     You are absolutely right or at least very close Bob. With our rules as they are today a top IC plane and pilot can outperform a top e plane and pilot. The statement that a high performing IC engine can't be used for carrier because they can't be idled back for LS is not true at all. The e-15 that you mention actually has a 3-line bellcrank as the plane was built before we could use 2.4 and I have the feeling that 3-12s are faster than 2-15s.  Also another thing you said "Practice, Practice, Practice" is absolutely right "period". I also like your 8:15 reply this morning. I don't think there is much that could be done with the present rules, as far as modifying them goes. The rules are the rules and we all follow those rules to the T and dotted i and the guy's that want to win, and are willing to build, test, and practise and compete, are going to be the people at the top of the "Top 20 list".
     Max Uttien's statement of "go light" is something many of us (US) have not paid enough attention to. We could build lighter and raise our scores, the pay back is you have to fly well so you don't tear the plane up in a minor crash. In the past several years the EU fliers have lightened their planes up, added more wing area, and their scores have gone up around a 100 points. Their Rules are "very" different than ours to the point that the planes could never be flown well or compete in our AMA Profile and then compete at the same level in their BCD (Basic Carrier Deck) events. Oh well.
Eric