Author Topic: Electric carrier & rules rant... (Read 2501 times)

Bob Reeves · « **on:** September 13, 2010, 10:14:47 AM »

From the Norvel engine thread..... I totally agree with Paul, carrier is no place for electric unless it's a completely separate class. Glow and electric are not even in the same ball park. It works in stunt because stunt is not dependent on timed speeds just consistency of engine run.

15 carrier has already shot itself in the foot with the 70 MPH limit. Good thought but someone missed the idea of running a Nelson to overcome slow speed trim. Now you have what is suppose to be an entry level event that takes a $300.00 engine to be competitive. They came up with Sportsman as an entry level event but allowed sliders.

My first ever official carrier flights were at Brodaks this year so I believe I have the perfect view point for the guy you want to attract. I can tell you right now the fastest way to get rid of me is to mix electric and glow. Whoever is making the rules need to talk to some of the people they are hoping to attract. For me carrier is something to play with that looks like allot of fun, it would be nice to at least know I might have a chance at a trophy without having to spend hundreds on a power plant. The present rules are enough of a determent and if I wasn't so enthusiastic I would have already decided carrier was too advanced for me. Face it YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ENTRY LEVEL EVENT.

Allan Perret · « **Reply #1 on:** September 13, 2010, 10:55:15 AM »

I kit bashed a Sig Akro into a profile Jr. Olympic. Had a Norvell .15 and used 8x6 wood prop (dont remember the brand). It did OK on .012 x 52' lines. I used the stock Norvell muffler and it was real quiet, some guys said they thought it was electric.

skyshark58 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 13, 2010, 11:34:01 AM »

Since the rule change to allow .40s in profile carrier didn't pass I am thinking of introducing a new non AMA event in the Northwest, I'll call it "NW Sport 40 Carrier". Here are the basic rules:

OS .40 with muffler is the only engine allowed, muffler pressure allowed. (Tower .40 is acceptable)
Any profile model of 300 or more sq. inch wing area will be allowed
Model must use Navy Military markings of any nation.
No method of changing the lead out position in flight will be allowed.
All other AMA carrier rules including scoring will apply.

What do y'all think? Yes No Maybe Why Mike

skyshark58 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 13, 2010, 11:40:07 AM »

That engine would be the OS .40FP not any OS .40 Mike

Paul Smith · « **Reply #4 on:** September 13, 2010, 11:44:16 AM »

I think you're on the right track, but you should go with 25, not 40.

40's are on the way out, in favor of 46's. There are still lots of 25's available at reasonable prices. Allowing 40's leaves the door open for Nelson 36's and 40's as well as a lot really brutal engines.

For those who fear the Nelson, the 25 is the cure. This proposed event would do well to include the old late-60's rule: Stock engine, including the throttle and muffler it came with. There are some high performance 25's out there, but not as high as an all out 40.

An one more thing, regular rotation only, no left-handed cranks.

------------------------

I've got a few FP40's, but you'll hear the same (valid) complaint. You're starting a new event with an out-of-production engine.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #5 on:** September 13, 2010, 11:50:05 AM »

Quote from: Bob Reeves on September 13, 2010, 10:14:47 AM

From the Norvel engine thread..... I totally agree with Paul, carrier is no place for electric unless it's a completely separate class. Glow and electric are not even in the same ball park. It works in stunt because stunt is not dependent on timed speeds just consistency of engine run.

15 carrier has already shot itself in the foot with the 70 MPH limit. Good thought but someone missed the idea of running a Nelson to overcome slow speed trim. Now you have what is suppose to be an entry level event that takes a $300.00 engine to be competitive. They came up with Sportsman as an entry level event but allowed sliders.

My first ever official carrier flights were at Brodaks this year so I believe I have the perfect view point for the guy you want to attract. I can tell you right now the fastest way to get rid of me is to mix electric and glow. Whoever is making the rules need to talk to some of the people they are hoping to attract. For me carrier is something to play with that looks like allot of fun, it would be nice to at least know I might have a chance at a trophy without having to spend hundreds on a power plant. The present rules are enough of a determent and if I wasn't so enthusiastic I would have already decided carrier was too advanced for me. Face it YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ENTRY LEVEL EVENT.

Bob,

I sent Mr. Brodak a message on this subject.
I would like to suggest that his regular Fly In guests, who currently support the event, do the same.

What good is the word of somebody on the Left Coast who won't go to Carmichaels under any rules?

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #6 on:** September 13, 2010, 12:01:39 PM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on September 13, 2010, 11:44:16 AM

I think you're on the right track, but you should go with 25, not 40.

40's are on the way out, in favor of 46's.

...

I've got a few FP40's, but you'll hear the same (valid) complaint. You're starting a new event with an out-of-production engine.

I don't fly carrier, so size your grain of salt appropriately:

Perhaps instead of 1-1/2 engine (OS 40, with Tower OK too), how about a short list of engines (say half a dozen) that the event organizers feel are roughly matched for ease of use and performance. This'll give the contestant the opportunity to buy something on sale, or at a swap meet, or dive through his pile of old engines, etc.

Or maybe specify a prop and a top RPM, then tach every engine on the ground at full throttle, then DQ anyone whose engine obviously unloads by an inordinate amount in the air. If necessary specify that one prop and both a top and bottom RPM.

Designing rules to keep cost down without allowing loopholes is a pain -- you guys that do so have both my sympathy and my admiration.

john vlna · « **Reply #7 on:** September 13, 2010, 12:13:13 PM »

The NCS and Carrier contest board develop the rules for carrier. I would recommend to those interested in changing or influencing the rules to contact their board member and join the NCS.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #8 on:** September 13, 2010, 01:05:50 PM »

Quote from: john vlna on September 13, 2010, 12:13:13 PM

The NCS and Carrier contest board develop the rules for carrier. I would recommend to those interested in changing or influencing the rules to contact their board member and join the NCS.

They do it soooo well. As evidenced by the huge participation.

A club in Denver invented 15 Profile, not an AMA commikttee.

The carrier flyers in Detroit invented Class I and Profile, not the NCS, not AMA, not the contest board.

All the AMA, the NCS, and the contest board ever did was ruin smooth-running events.

----------------------------------------

PS: If you must electricute The Brodak, just all Sig Skyray, it's a ready-made package.
Leave the healthy events alone (for once).

bfrog · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2010, 02:22:27 PM »

To quote Bob-

15 carrier has already shot itself in the foot with the 70 MPH limit. Good thought but someone missed the idea of running a Nelson to overcome slow speed trim. Now you have what is suppose to be an entry level event that takes a $300.00 engine to be competitive. They came up with Sportsman as an entry level event but allowed sliders.

OK there are a few items in this statement that I totally disagree with (along with many others I'm sure).

The speed limit was set in 15 carrier so that you didn't need a $300 engine to be competitive. My Cox, which I bought used was about $100. If you don't want to spend that much there are other alternatives such as an MVVS. If you don't get 70 MPH then you will most likely be in the 60's with a reasonable plane and motor and the point spread is not that much. I have rarely seen a $300 Nelson in 15 carrier and I don't understand how that relates to overcoming low speed trim. I really get tired of hearing all of the inflated costs for 15 carrier. If you want to make a good point then stay within reality, using these super inflated costs just ruins any credibility in the argument.

Sliders are not allowed in 15 carrier only in Profile. Sliders in Sportsman (Profile) are not necessarily required. Most Sportsman class competitors, if they are truly Sportsman level flyers do not know how to hang the plane even with a slider. Do the best you can and you will be right there with the other Sportsman entries. Sportsman is the entry level event leading to participation in Open Profile, if you are going to progress into Open class you should get experience with a slider. Sliders are not the end all be all of only the top competitors. They take a little work but are part of the event. If you don't want to use a slider, DON'T. you should still be able to score in the low to mid 200s which is what most Sportsman class flyers achieve. Look at the scores for most contest that have Sportsman and Open classes you will see what I am talking about.

Changing the engine size in Open Profile will take most of the current crop of entrants and make them change all of their existing equipment. How does this add to the number of people flying carrier? I can only see it reducing the number of entrants. Be realistic, there is a core group of people who are still flying carrier and anything that would reduce that core group is just going to hurt the event(s).

Adding electrics to some of the speed limit events may bring others into the event without obsoleting the existing participants equipment. Since there is a speed limit for these events there is no great advantage either way. Fly what you are comfortable with and enjoy the event.

Yes it's nice to be in the trophies but you can't expect to do that without getting some experience and learning how to fly the event. Even Sportsman has people that have been in that event for multiple years. A newcomer just can't expect to build a plane, fly it a few times and expect to challenge the more experienced people. That just doesn't happen in any event. You have to work your way up the experience ladder.

One last comment. If you want to change the rules contact the group that controls the rules. If it's Brodak, contact them. If it's AMA events contact the Navy Carrier Society which is the SIG (Special Interest Group) of AMA that has the best chance of getting AMA to adjust the rules for carrier. Typically the NCS will pole it's membership on new proposals and pass their findings to the AMA. If you want to have a local event with your own rules DO IT. Ranting on this message board does nothing but vent a lot of hot air.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2010, 06:55:08 PM »

Actually, the Event Director was correct in surfacing his intended rules change on a mesage board before the damage was done. Allowing the people who actually fly the event to respond before the fatal rules change is a valuable function of message boards.

I have not seen one single posting that says, "I never flew carrier at the Brodak but if they let me use electric, I will build one and enter." There has not been even ONE such person ever.

I paid money to join NCS. Almost every tab on their board is out of service. Tagged "under construction" with a cartoon of Homer Simpson.

--------------

Sooooo, if they allow electrics, bfrog will be at The Brodak?

john vlna · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2010, 07:44:33 PM »

No one may have posted a message but I have had several people ask me if electrics were allowable at brodak's, and they indicated that they would fly if they were allowed

david smith · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2010, 07:48:38 PM »

My opinion has changed as far as the electrics go. I was against allowing them in with gas but I had some things explained to me a little better and now it doesn't matter to me if they are allowed because I will beat them anyways. I don't fly electric and don't plan on it. I like my glow fuel and as long as I can do it I will. I think the perfect example of this so called domination that electrics will have over gas is proved wrong by looking at the nats results. Pete Mazur who is probably one of the people who is at the leading edge of electric power for carrier still flies his glow powered planes to win at the nats.

Saying you have to have a nelson powered 15 plane to win is absolutely ridiculous!!! All you need is a plane and engine combo that will do close to 70, is reliable, and practice. Fly more than 4 or 5 times a year at the contests. You don't have to fly every day or even every week but you have to do something. Yes it is a hobby and suppose to be fun but like anything else if you are going to compete in it and want to be good you have to practice. Again I can use the nats results look at how many dnf's or just high speed scores there were like I always tell new people just getting a complete flight and being consistant will probably place you in the top three.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #13 on:** September 14, 2010, 05:59:44 AM »

Quote from: john vlna on September 13, 2010, 07:44:33 PM

No one may have posted a message but I have had several people ask me if electrics were allowable at brodak's, and they indicated that they would fly if they were allowed

Are these unnamed people real? As real as the people who have bought and built planes and paid entry fees and actually entered the Brodak several times?

I have entered an flown eight carrier events over the course of four Brodaks. I will not compete against an electric motor.

When an event is healthy and you have a new idea, start a new event.

You did well to surface this scheme before it's too late to take corrective action.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #14 on:** September 14, 2010, 06:15:35 AM »

Quote from: john vlna on September 13, 2010, 12:13:13 PM

The NCS and Carrier contest board develop the rules for carrier. I would recommend to those interested in changing or influencing the rules to contact their board member and join the NCS.

One of the few parts of the NCS site that actually works is the RULES section.
They don't allow electrics in 15 or Sportsman.
If you think they're so great, why don't you compley with their rules?

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #15 on:** September 14, 2010, 07:51:13 AM »

Quote from: bfrog on September 13, 2010, 02:22:27 PM

To quote Bob-

15 carrier has already shot itself in the foot with the 70 MPH limit. Good thought but someone missed the idea of running a Nelson to overcome slow speed trim. Now you have what is suppose to be an entry level event that takes a $300.00 engine to be competitive. They came up with Sportsman as an entry level event but allowed sliders.

OK there are a few items in this statement that I totally disagree with (along with many others I'm sure).

The speed limit was set in 15 carrier so that you didn't need a $300 engine to be competitive. My Cox, which I bought used was about $100. If you don't want to spend that much there are other alternatives such as an MVVS. If you don't get 70 MPH then you will most likely be in the 60's with a reasonable plane and motor and the point spread is not that much. I have rarely seen a $300 Nelson in 15 carrier and I don't understand how that relates to overcoming low speed trim. I really get tired of hearing all of the inflated costs for 15 carrier. If you want to make a good point then stay within reality, using these super inflated costs just ruins any credibility in the argument.

Sliders are not allowed in 15 carrier only in Profile. Sliders in Sportsman (Profile) are not necessarily required. Most Sportsman class competitors, if they are truly Sportsman level flyers do not know how to hang the plane even with a slider. Do the best you can and you will be right there with the other Sportsman entries. Sportsman is the entry level event leading to participation in Open Profile, if you are going to progress into Open class you should get experience with a slider. Sliders are not the end all be all of only the top competitors. They take a little work but are part of the event. If you don't want to use a slider, DON'T. you should still be able to score in the low to mid 200s which is what most Sportsman class flyers achieve. Look at the scores for most contest that have Sportsman and Open classes you will see what I am talking about.

Changing the engine size in Open Profile will take most of the current crop of entrants and make them change all of their existing equipment. How does this add to the number of people flying carrier? I can only see it reducing the number of entrants. Be realistic, there is a core group of people who are still flying carrier and anything that would reduce that core group is just going to hurt the event(s).

Adding electrics to some of the speed limit events may bring others into the event without obsoleting the existing participants equipment. Since there is a speed limit for these events there is no great advantage either way. Fly what you are comfortable with and enjoy the event.

Yes it's nice to be in the trophies but you can't expect to do that without getting some experience and learning how to fly the event. Even Sportsman has people that have been in that event for multiple years. A newcomer just can't expect to build a plane, fly it a few times and expect to challenge the more experienced people. That just doesn't happen in any event. You have to work your way up the experience ladder.

One last comment. If you want to change the rules contact the group that controls the rules. If it's Brodak, contact them. If it's AMA events contact the Navy Carrier Society which is the SIG (Special Interest Group) of AMA that has the best chance of getting AMA to adjust the rules for carrier. Typically the NCS will pole it's membership on new proposals and pass their findings to the AMA. If you want to have a local event with your own rules DO IT. Ranting on this message board does nothing but vent a lot of hot air.

Just to address a few items..

Can't believe anyone can't see how a super hot 15 will allow one to trim for low speed and still have the power to drag it to 70. Do I really need to explain the advantage of this in detail?

Check out ebay item # 300463020453 for a Nelson 15, closed at $260.00. Add a $40.00 carb and wow! $300.00

15 Carrier at Brodaks this year was won with a Nelson.

Believe what you want, I'm through with this whole subject, ain't worth the time.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #16 on:** September 14, 2010, 09:00:47 AM »

Don't give up yet Bob. I beat Melvin at Denver one year with my Enya .15 using his design that was published. I call it the Navy Piper Cub. Can't remember the real name of it. But, as has been stated, consistancy is where it is at. I have witnessed many people trying to get that last little bit out of their equipment just to fall short. During the years I have been assisted director, event director, circle judge, timer and tabulator. For some reason never got to be pit boss. To all watch the spectators at a carrier meet some time. It is like stunt, once they see sveral flights it is all the same. What has turned me off of carrier was the penalty they put on the planes using mufflers. They are limited to 10% contest supplied fuel. If no muffler you can go as high on nitro as you want. By the way they did let me fly Sportsman and Skyray on the unofficial events day. But, since have started doing it on the same day as Profile carrier. I too say Sportsman should not allow slders. I also told the originator of SkyRay Carrier he messed up by not specifying the leadouts should be at the kit location and not adjustable. Also allowing 40's was a mistake.

This year I have flown my G-S Bearcat and the new Skyray. It is still fun to fly fast and slow down. I just moved my 15 carrier in the shop that is still diesel powered. I guess I am fed up with collecting the dust collectors. I am flying for just fun. Jim Piscetto and I had just such a discussion at the TOPCLASS II Contest. Got awards as nobody came to fly in the wind. Have not checked, but is Tulsa going to have carrier at their meet this year?

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #17 on:** September 14, 2010, 10:12:24 AM »

Hi Doc,

Not giving up on Carrier, just this topic.

No Tulsa is not going to have carrier at out September contest and probably never will. I would like to hold a carrier fun fly but it will be on a different weekend and not till next year. Except for the local club members I'm not sure how many would like the idea of a cement deck that is narrower than a normal carrier deck but when we hold it anyone that is willing will be welcome.

Dave Rolley · « **Reply #18 on:** September 14, 2010, 03:29:48 PM »

Bob,

Gerry Deneau and I came up with the 15 Carrier rules on the drive to and from the one of the Lincoln Nats. When the high speed limit was set the current low speed hanging flight used in modern Carrier wasn't really envisioned. At the time a 2 minute low speed was considered very good. Most models in any Carrier class were still using fixed leadout positions.

We set the high speed limit low enough so that it didn't require an all out racing engine but high enough that a clapped out sport 15 wasn't likely to hit it. We thought the likely pool of engines would be coming from folks that raced Goodyear and that a 15 Carrier event might be a good match. Especially since Goodyear was going faster and faster with folks starting to drop out locally. We thought it provided a good starting place and might actually grow the event.

The first 15 Carrier (Gerry's) had an HB 15. The second (mine) had an OPS 15 (the plane and engine still hangs in my basement). The third (Glen Magree's?) had a Cox Conquest. Several local folks are flying with Fox 15 Schnurle engines.

In Denver we still have a couple of folks that never moved beyond the 15 class. They like its simplicity and they have other events for their "serious" modeling. It has been my experience that local level performance is about right for the event. But once folks start traveling 100s of miles for a contest all bets are off.

The problem you see is not the event or the rules. The problem is the person that pushes the entry level event performance to the extreme level. Somehow that strikes me as just plain bad manners. I don't know any way to write the rules to deal with that. Unfortunately there isn't enough participation to create separate skill classes.

Dave

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #19 on:** September 14, 2010, 03:58:34 PM »

Quote from: Dave Rolley on September 14, 2010, 03:29:48 PM

Bob,

...

The problem you see is not the event or the rules. The problem is the person that pushes the entry level event performance to the extreme level. Somehow that strikes me as just plain bad manners. I don't know any way to write the rules to deal with that. Unfortunately there isn't enough participation to create separate skill classes.

Dave

Re: "Entry Level Event"

Dave hit the nail right on the head. It is a fallacy to attempt to create such an event by simply limiting technology. Everyone who has ever tried to do so fails to take into account the tenacity of the human competitive spirit. The only solution that seems to work is to classify competitors by demonstrated skill level, i.e. like PAMPA.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #20 on:** September 14, 2010, 04:09:23 PM »

Your rules are pretty good, one exception, they still allow left hand crankshafts, which gives the hard core cutthroat with a machine chop or big money all he needs to dominate the event - and they do! The left hand crank can end up costing more than the engine, throttle, bellcrank, and handle combined.

In the early 1980's, FAI Combat was won by Cox Conquests, Rossis, and of course, The Nelson. In 1988, the 10% nitro/7 mm venturi rule came in and crippled these engines. In 1990, the muffler rule administered the coupe de grass to ALL existing combat 15's. About 50 to 60 combat flyers get stuck about a dozen or more engines each with no event to fly 'em in. As far as I'm concerned, 15 Carrier engines cost nothing. Don't bother with Ebay, just find your local F2D flyer.

Throttles are free, too. Just dip into that box of throttles you pulled off OS's for stunt, racing, and speed limit combat. Adapter, no problemo. Bore out an old venturi so the throttle fits and glue it in with JB or some such thing.

Once the 70 MPH high is in hand, the real fun starts - trying to get a high powered engine to run through the low speed. It's a compromise. Don't be so sure you've got it made in the shade if you bag a Nelson.

Dave Rolley · « **Reply #21 on:** September 14, 2010, 10:46:55 PM »

Everyone,

The 15 Carrier rules originated no later than the mid 80s perhaps as early as the late 70s.

Left hand crankshafts, extreme hanging flight, etc. for Navy Carrier weren't even a twinkle in someone's eye. We didn't have or just barely had the 60 degree rule for low speed. Heck some folks were still trying to get pressure metering blocks to work with homemade exhaust slides made out of bandsaw blade material (including a pressure dump bleed mechanism) on Class 2 models. Except for a few folks like Pete Mazur and Terry Herron, the Guardian was still king in the scale classes and lots of folks complained about the sea of look-a-like blue Grumman iron. We may have still been working with the plain bearing rule in Profile Carrier. We didn't have or just barely had scale points in Profile Carrier.

Almost everything about the Carrier event has evolved a lot since then. The flying style, the equipment, and the folks flying the event.

15 Carrier is still operating with the same set of rules it started with. The goal then was simplicity. Elevator, throttle, and hook. I think that is still a worthy goal.

I agree with Bob, the only real way to deal with the increasing proficiency of the pilots and evolution of the equipment is skill/performance classes. Other than at the Nationals, ridicule might work. But that just ticks folks off. I'd go for skill classes.

Dave

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #22 on:** September 15, 2010, 01:50:56 AM »

Said I was through with this subject but you brought up a good point.. Wouldn't 15 carrier be more of an entry level event if it was limited to plain bearing engines? Still plenty of OS FP's and LA's around. I remember flying Slow Rat back in the 70's when it was limited to plain bearing baffle piston engines. The guys that have it together will still win but the new guy won't look at the flight line and think he needs a high buck motor to be competitive.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #23 on:** September 15, 2010, 06:42:17 AM »

When you say "plain bearing", you need A LOT more verbage, of else you'll get what they got on Profile Carrier: Ball bearing full race 40's, retrofitted with 36 left hand cranks and bronze bushing made to replace the ball bearings.

Actually, just about any rule that contains the word ENGINE, would be OK with me.

Dave Rolley · « **Reply #24 on:** September 15, 2010, 11:33:28 AM »

The current rules are still working just fine in Denver. If the problem is with a specific contest perhaps the sponsors need to do some thing for that contest. A 95% solution works just fine. I'm not about to lose sleep over the 5% that push it to ridiculous levels.

Dave

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #25 on:** October 19, 2010, 10:09:40 AM »

...or introduce a new trophy - "Spirit of Denver Rules Award"

Just my 2c, Copper plated 2 cents at that.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #26 on:** October 19, 2010, 06:35:03 PM »

You don't need the latest/hottest .15 to be competitive in local contests. It just takes practice and learning your engine. I have located my Super Tigre 2.5 diesel for .15 carrier. Also the Enya .15 that has collected a first for me a while back. Well a long, long time back. Now do you guys want me to get serious.

PS:The PAW 2.5 is still mounted on the Cub carrier I call it. It was designed by Melvin Schuette. jeh

Author Topic: Electric carrier & rules rant... (Read 2501 times)

david smith