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Author Topic: Carrier-Deck.com  (Read 5892 times)

Offline john e. holliday

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Carrier-Deck.com
« on: May 23, 2017, 07:52:04 PM »
Have just spent some on the site.  The British have a different take on carrier flying and they seem to be getting new people involved.  Any way it is fun reading what they do, especially with the rocket assist take off plane.  I don't think we could do it here in the states.  Also it looks like electric is taking over their event too.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2017, 08:32:45 AM »
Actually a throttle control event with high & low speed scores and perhaps touch & go and taxi lap would be a good idea - without the deck.

With the dwindling number of people involved, the deck is more & more of a burden, even a flush deck with just the bags & ropes.
Paul Smith

Offline JoeJust

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2017, 05:33:08 PM »
Have just spent some on the site.  The British have a different take on carrier flying and they seem to be getting new people involved.  Any way it is fun reading what they do, especially with the rocket assist take off plane.  I don't think we could do it here in the states.  Also it looks like electric is taking over their event too.   H^^
Doc, no, the IC crowd in Europe is still IC.  Some movement toward E flight but not taking over.
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline JoeJust

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2017, 07:14:09 PM »
Actually a throttle control event with high & low speed scores and perhaps touch & go and taxi lap would be a good idea - without the deck.

With the dwindling number of people involved, the deck is more & more of a burden, even a flush deck with just the bags & ropes.

Or, If you really want to have some fun try what I did and build 1/2 of a typical European style deck.  Not much money, but one heck of a lot of fun, plus it is easier for us older gents to launch a Carrier pane.
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2017, 03:10:52 AM »
I don't even want to carry around the bags again.  I was the bag carrier in Wichita for three years. 

We could structure a high-low landing event that could be flown on either pavement or grass and get out of the whole "navy" concept.  The Navy ws good to modeling up until circa 1970.  That's a long time in the past. 

It's time for a land-based USAF event.  Something like model jet fighter models with stock RC 25's.  We've been hung up in the past with an obsolete event using unobtainable engines long enough.
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2017, 06:25:05 AM »
Our Carrier based Naval Aviation force is more important in today's world than ever. As for C/L Navy Carrier, there is plenty of available technology. Perhaps it's different, but it certainly isn't lacking...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2017, 06:55:05 AM »
Yeah, sure, the navy's good.  But so is the Air Force and the Army Air Corps.   

In the olden days of the 1960's there were gung-ho carrier supporters that would haul a wooden deck to ten contests per year. 
We need to face current reality.
Maybe we can have an event that isn't so labor-intensive to run.
Paul Smith

Jim Roselle

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2017, 07:56:38 AM »
The part of Paul's statement that I agree with is an event that uses stock RC 25's. I think a carrier event that allowed muffler pressure and engines that can be purchased new for les than $100 might go a long way toward increasing carrier participation. Just one newbies opinion.

Jim

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2017, 09:09:05 AM »
Thanks that's supporter Number One.

How about this:

Stock RC 25 with standard throttle & muffler, scale points, high & low speed and a full stop landing with the engine still running in designated "runway" area.

That would cover the key elements of carrier without the deck.
Paul Smith

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2017, 10:06:49 AM »
I need to reverse what I said in another thread where I had no business pontificating...

In that case, I was arguing against the slow flight portion ( as not very realistic and boring  ((for an observer))) and in doing so;

I was NOT fully understanding the reason and history

Doc's reference to this UK site ...and me being bored yesterday....had me read a lot more about Carrier and how to do it

Also as a side note... I am a military aviation nut case...so when I came back...(( to model aviation)) ;

Seeing Helicopters DO WHAT NO REAL WORLD chopper can do, assaulted my sense of realism...
Then a few RC guys showed up doing 3D flying, and I got the same sense of, you gotta be sh-----itting me.

I did mention, in the other detracting post, that I have personally witnessed Real World Navy Carrier launch and recovery operations

Funny how the UK site provided me with the perspective of Fast Launch.  ( 7 level very fast as can be laps)...= Go Git The Bastards NOW!

7 Level slow laps= Hurry back, but be safe, Getting your aircraft and body back on this moving, heaving, flight deck in ONE piece--- NO MATTER THE WX.....

Sadly, I am much too abused and old now to try my hand at this cool competition

Thus.... I rescind my previous detrimental observation and opinion

This event MUST be flown Off a Deck, and Landed ON a DECK, and follow the reality as close as possible to the Tradition , skill, and Huevos or REAL Navy Carrier pilots

So ...since I am NOT a current carrier Pilot I propose the NCS adopt some way to FUND Paid volunteers to do ---at least ----the hard work of storage, transport, and set up of approved carrier decks


I help with donations to all sorts of MY INTEREST things--- and I know there are many like me....not enough---- but they are out here






"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2017, 10:32:11 AM »
The United States Navy sponsored the first Navy Carrier competition at the Dallas NATS in 1950. The attachments are the first pages of the December 15, 1952 issue of Model Aviation, announcing the adoption of Navy Carrier as an official AMA event. Pay particular attention to paragraphs 2 & 3. This can't change.

Ideas are great but are worthless unless acted upon.

Instead of just bouncing ideas back & forth across cyberspace, take the initiative and prepare a formal proposal and submit through the AMA process. Promote your proposal. It takes work but that is how things get done.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2017, 11:53:33 AM »
I need to reverse what I said in another thread where I had no business pontificating...

In that case, I was arguing against the slow flight portion ( as not very realistic and boring  ((for an observer))) and in doing so;

I was NOT fully understanding the reason and history

Doc's reference to this UK site ...and me being bored yesterday....had me read a lot more about Carrier and how to do it

Also as a side note... I am a military aviation nut case...so when I came back...(( to model aviation)) ;

Seeing Helicopters DO WHAT NO REAL WORLD chopper can do, assaulted my sense of realism...
Then a few RC guys showed up doing 3D flying, and I got the same sense of, you gotta be sh-----itting me.

I did mention, in the other detracting post, that I have personally witnessed Real World Navy Carrier launch and recovery operations

Funny how the UK site provided me with the perspective of Fast Launch.  ( 7 level very fast as can be laps)...= Go Git The Bastards NOW!

7 Level slow laps= Hurry back, but be safe, Getting your aircraft and body back on this moving, heaving, flight deck in ONE piece--- NO MATTER THE WX.....

Sadly, I am much too abused and old now to try my hand at this cool competition

Thus.... I rescind my previous detrimental observation and opinion

This event MUST be flown Off a Deck, and Landed ON a DECK, and follow the reality as close as possible to the Tradition , skill, and Huevos or REAL Navy Carrier pilots

So ...since I am NOT a current carrier Pilot I propose the NCS adopt some way to FUND Paid volunteers to do ---at least ----the hard work of storage, transport, and set up of approved carrier decks


I help with donations to all sorts of MY INTEREST things--- and I know there are many like me....not enough---- but they are out here


Not saying to do away with Carrier.  We wouldn't want to hurt the seven people who still fly it.
But if we want CL to continue we need to adapt to the reality of what's available today. 
Class I was invented to utilize the RC 40's available in the early 1960's. 
It's 55 years later and the ST G21/40 of today is the OS 25.
The deck was no big deal when The Navy built them for us.  Also 50 years in the past.
Paul Smith

Offline JoeJust

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2017, 05:29:38 PM »
[quote

Sadly, I am much too abused and old now to try my hand at this cool competition

"To abused and too old?   This is the perfect CL event for you!  All day to get in two flights!  No difficult stunts to perform!...I'm 80 years old, beat up top to bottom and I still have fun doing the 7-7 l thing when ever I can get to do it.  Get your free NCS membership and WELCOME ABOARD!
Joe

Need help getting started?  PM me!

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2017, 06:28:29 PM »
...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2017, 06:05:03 PM »
I have flown off wood and permanent carrier decks. Buder Park here in St Louis has a permanent carrier deck but we don't have any of the bags or anyone in the club willing to run a contest here.

Whittier Narrows in the LA area has a permanent carrier deck and we just installed the bags and we were off and running when we flew at that site. We could set up the deck in 15 minutes and be ready to fly. All of the bags and tools fit in a large milk crate. The club I was part of in LA area hosted 2 carrier contests each year.

The wooden carrier deck that we used in Wichita when I was there (2004-2012) was on a trailer and it took a small army to assemble and then take apart as we all know.

When I was flying Profile carrier I took the low technology approach with an OS-35FP, electronic throttle, no slider and flew an MO-1 and a Hawker Sea Fury. I always knew that I could never match the scores from pilots with the Nelsons and the sliders.  The way the scores are calculated it encourages the really fast high end speeds and the sliders to get the really slow speed times. The entire slider debate is old so you are stuck with the rules as they are written.

With the advent of 2.4 Ghz there should be Novice Profile carrier event, same as the current profile carrier but do not allow sliders and allow 2.4 Ghz to be used. I know the whole idea of a maximum top speed like that is used .15 carrier is not popular but combine that the no slider rule you would get back to a more basic event that comes down to flying skill and would not encourage high end motors such as the Nelsons.

I stopped flying carrier back in 2010 or 2011 when my MO-1 crashed at the Wichita contest.

Fred
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AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2017, 08:09:13 PM »
     Hi Fred, I remember flying with you many times at the Wittier Narrows site. They still have one contest a year there and Ron Duly usually ED's that carrier event. The Narrows is such a nice place to fly with all of the trees for shade and rest rooms handy to the flying site. There is another carrier contest at the Flood basin near Van Nuys usually ED ed by Ron Duly so that makes 2 carrier events in the LA area. The nearest thing to the ideal event you mention is .15 carrier and the NWS40 events. In the Sportsman AMA profile carrier event planes are allowed with sliders to encourage fliers to build the AMA carrier type plane and then fly it in the Sportsman event until they gain the experience to move up to AMA Profile. The NWS40 event is a no slider event although those planes can be easily flown like .15 carrier is flown, in a hang. The NW fliers have not attempted any hanging with the NWS40's that I have seen to date. The NWS40 flier's in the NW area don't seem to practice with their planes very much if at all, flying only in contests. I think they may be happy with that and I'm a little disappointed it is not competing, its more like "lets see who is lucky today (the day of the contest). The scores can be very close (1st through 5th point spreads of less than 10 points) and if someone would spend some time practicing he would surely jump out in front of the pack which may then turn the guys that don't want to practice away from flying the event (I think). To me there seems to be almost a need not to compete in carrier,very unlike Stunt, Combat, or speed. So we end up with the few who like to compete and the other few which doesn't like to compete. If those two groups could be brought together we could have a better turnout at the contest but I don't think they will ever come together because it turns out to be two very different events.
     
Eric

Offline john vlna

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2017, 07:56:28 PM »
Eric
I agree with you in that some people like the low pressure non official events and others like the AMA ones. 15, Skyray, Sportsman and NW 40 are all events that can be flown without sliders hanging; and without spending a lot of time practicing and seeking out the best equipment.

From what I have seen these unofficial events do not typically bring people into carrier. And there is no need to combine them. I've had a lot of people fly Sportsman and 15 at Brodak's and only two fliers ever moved over to the AMA events. The people that fly carrier there are mostly crossovers from stunt and are just there for a fun event.

My first carrier contest was the 1990 NATS. I remember Joe Just asking me, didn't I want to fly in Sportsman instead of Profile? Well no I did not. I had come to fly carrier, I was a beginner, but I also was a competitor and was not there to fly a fun event. I enjoy the unofficial events but they are not why I go to contests.
John

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2017, 01:54:41 PM »
At the risk of continuing thread drift: I was at the NW Regionals. 7 or 8 entries (I forget) in NW Sport Carrier. I was third. The other carrier events didn't seem to have enough entries to fill a podium.  I think they may be on to something.  As far as the proposed Air Force event, it's here, look under "Fun Scale".  8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Jim Roselle

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2017, 03:06:38 PM »
It would be nice if NW .40 allowed something like this so new engines could be easily purchased:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/asp-s32a-two-stroke-glow-engine.html

I believe this would make the event even more approachable.

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2017, 07:49:39 AM »
If that engine is a copy of the OS-32 (as it looks to be) it would make the engines presently allowed in NW Carrier obsolete.  I run one of those in profile carrier and it is a much stronger engine than FPs or Tower 40s. Since it is an unofficial event, nothing to stop a "Southwest Sport Carrier" class being started that would allow the use of faster engines.  That being said it would be better to just stay with NW rules, there are too many classes (both unofficial and official) in Carrier as it is.  8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Carrier-Deck.com
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2017, 10:35:52 AM »
Yes, leave the NW 40 carrier alone.   I have found I have the engines in my stash and a couple of planes to build and play with.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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