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Author Topic: Carrier Control question update and new question  (Read 16303 times)

Offline Roy Johnson

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Carrier Control question update and new question
« on: August 26, 2023, 02:10:57 PM »
In the process of getting my throttle rigged on the Crusader and another issue has come up. I just can't get enough throw on the throttle portion of the 3 line bell crank and no matter what I do the throttle bell crank is not traveling far enough and is operating poorly. The elevator control and the hook drop works fine. So what i want to do is just build a radio control for the throttle. A local club that has carrier guys have looked at controls and really can't help as the bell crank is buried and would require cutting the whole plane apart to get to it.
I have lots of radio stuff on 2.4Hz. I have 3 Traxxis car controllers. Some of the carrier guys I see are using car controllers for throttles.
I have 2 HiTec receivers free to use. The problem is I can't get the receivers to pair with transmitters.
Anybody out there have any experience with these?
Since I'm on a budget I kinda want to use what I have and not to have to rush out and buy a lotta new stuff.
I've done RC for over 40 years so I'm not a complete noob on the stuff, just can't figure out the pairing sequence.
On the controllers in addition to the regular steering and throttle trigger I have a "Set" button.
I have 2 Traxxix transmitters that are labeled TQ
and one that is a TQ Link.

Thanks,
Roy

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2023, 05:04:05 PM »
Traxxas transmitters need Traxxas receivers. I would suggest contacting Traxxas. Their customer support is very good. They can tell you if you have receivers and transmitters that will actually communicate with each other, and how to link or bind them. In order to be legal, the transmitters must be 2.4 ghz, not the crystal controlled 27 mhz models with the long metal antenna.

On your original problem, you may have run afoul of some confusing product branding. There are two styles of 3 line handles and bellcranks, and they have different amounts of throttle control travel. The original brand has the shorter travel. It is labelled Sturdi Built and/or J-Roberts. The other brand with more travel was first sold under the G-S brand, then later the L&R brand. Ultimately it was picked up by Brodak, and labelled Brodak/ J-Roberts. Thus, there are two different and incompatible product lines both bearing the J-Roberts name.

All that being said, they only way this could be your problem is if you have an "old" handle and a "new" bellcrank. If you bought everything new from Brodak, this can't be your problem. If you bought equipment on ebay, it's a possibility. Have the local carrier guys look at your handle compared to theirs. If there's a difference, try theirs. You may need to play with line lengths, though. Try making some short temporary test lines out of some .020 or .025 music wire.

If you think you have a matched handle and bellcrank, then you either have a mis-rigged throttle linkage to the engine, mismatched line lengths, or some sort of mechanical obstruction limiting the bellcrank. Hook up your lines and handle to the airplane. Make note of the throttle movement. Disconnect the pushrod from the carb. Do you get more movement of the throttle linkage? If so, readjust the linkage. Push the throttle trigger forward, then pull the throttle line toward you. Does the throttle move more? If so, your throttle line is too long. Try a shorter line connector on the throttle line, or bigger connectors on the up and down lines. Now, pull the throttle trigger all the way back. Unhook the throttle line so it is slack. Do you get more movement? If so, then the throttle line is too short. Try a longer line connector.

I've made many sets of carrier lines, and getting all the line lengths right is quite a balancing act. I think I've only had two sets that worked properly with all the same length line connectors. Two things that I learned along the way are to always pre-stretch your lines because  they will change when a load is applied, and leave the throttle disconnected until last. If the bellcrank isn't working right, the throttle won't work right, and if the throttle isn't working right, it can keep the bellcrank from working right.

Of course, using a radio operated throttle instead means you won't have to worry about any of it.  :)

Offline Roy Johnson

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2023, 07:55:26 AM »
Traxxas transmitters need Traxxas receivers. I would suggest contacting Traxxas. Their customer support is very good. They can tell you if you have receivers and transmitters that will actually communicate with each other, and how to link or bind them. In order to be legal, the transmitters must be 2.4 ghz, not the crystal controlled 27 mhz models with the long metal antenna.

On your original problem, you may have run afoul of some confusing product branding. There are two styles of 3 line handles and bellcranks, and they have different amounts of throttle control travel. The original brand has the shorter travel. It is labelled Sturdi Built and/or J-Roberts. The other brand with more travel was first sold under the G-S brand, then later the L&R brand. Ultimately it was picked up by Brodak, and labelled Brodak/ J-Roberts. Thus, there are two different and incompatible product lines both bearing the J-Roberts name.

All that being said, they only way this could be your problem is if you have an "old" handle and a "new" bellcrank. If you bought everything new from Brodak, this can't be your problem. If you bought equipment on ebay, it's a possibility. Have the local carrier guys look at your handle compared to theirs. If there's a difference, try theirs. You may need to play with line lengths, though. Try making some short temporary test lines out of some .020 or .025 music wire.

If you think you have a matched handle and bellcrank, then you either have a mis-rigged throttle linkage to the engine, mismatched line lengths, or some sort of mechanical obstruction limiting the bellcrank. Hook up your lines and handle to the airplane. Make note of the throttle movement. Disconnect the pushrod from the carb. Do you get more movement of the throttle linkage? If so, readjust the linkage. Push the throttle trigger forward, then pull the throttle line toward you. Does the throttle move more? If so, your throttle line is too long. Try a shorter line connector on the throttle line, or bigger connectors on the up and down lines. Now, pull the throttle trigger all the way back. Unhook the throttle line so it is slack. Do you get more movement? If so, then the throttle line is too short. Try a longer line connector.

I've made many sets of carrier lines, and getting all the line lengths right is quite a balancing act. I think I've only had two sets that worked properly with all the same length line connectors. Two things that I learned along the way are to always pre-stretch your lines because  they will change when a load is applied, and leave the throttle disconnected until last. If the bellcrank isn't working right, the throttle won't work right, and if the throttle isn't working right, it can keep the bellcrank from working right.

Of course, using a radio operated throttle instead means you won't have to worry about any of it.  :)


Bill, thanks for taking the time to reply. A couple of things. The Crusader kit was a donation from a friend and I built it because I've never had nor have I flown a Carrier plane a carrier plane. A friend I grew up with flying models donated it to me. And he is in a small club that specializes in carrier/throttle planes. So I took the plane up there for a flying session just to get feedback. None of the guys could really come up with a fix. I watched them fly and I was pretty amazed at just how good they could control their planes, throttling and flying. They were half/half 3 line and 2.4Hz. When I examined their bellcranks I noticed that they had modified them by enlarging the slots and extending the range the slots would go. Compared to my bellcrank they were extremely loose. So part of my conclusion was that the stock configuration on mine were too tight and not enough travel. Since I can't modify it now I'll just add on a 2.4 radio throttle. I did go online and found 2 channel Traxxas receivers available so I'll be able to do this fairly easily. Agian, thanks for the tips. I'm looking forward to getting it flying and maybe another future carrier plane build with all the lessons I've learned.

PS: I don't know the bellcrank manufacturer as I had 3 in my stash that were new but unbagged. I picked the one that looked like was indicated on the plans. The control handle is labeled "GS Products". And no problem with making 3 lines accurately as I have jig fixtures for my backyard to cut lines and I make them all the time.

Roy

Offline john vlna

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2023, 08:39:23 AM »
Roy as I mentioned last Sunday there is an easy fix. I wrote the attached a long time ago when I was the NCS Hi-Lo newsletter editor.  The graphics have gone missing but I  have one glow plane left. This should give you the information you need for a throttle  transfer. If you can meke the picnic next week I'll bring the plane

Of course you will have to do this all on one side because of how you BC is mounted.

Offline john vlna

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2023, 08:45:12 AM »
Roy also check my post in the 15 Nationals thead below. It has links to the Hobbyking products that Tim, George and I use.

Offline Roy Johnson

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2023, 08:52:45 AM »
Roy as I mentioned last Sunday there is an easy fix. I wrote the attached a long time ago when I was the NCS Hi-Lo newsletter editor.  The graphics have gone missing but I  have one glow plane left. This should give you the information you need for a throttle  transfer. If you can meke the picnic next week I'll bring the plane

Of course you will have to do this all on one side because of how you BC is mounted.

Thanks John,

So what you are suggesting is run the throttle pushrod to another transfer crank to increase the throw? Don’t really want to tear the wing apart to access the bellcrank. I’ll scope it out and let you know. Thx

Offline john vlna

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2023, 09:35:07 AM »
You don't have to tear the wing apart. Put a secondary transfer crank between the wing LE and the motor. You will just have one crank instead of two as shown in my pictures . It is just as i drew it. The push rod comes out of the wing , you have an intermediary crank that reduces the throw, nominally by 1/2. That give you full throttle movement with full BC movement. It is just like the pictures except everything is on the outboard side. The plane in the pics have the BC mounted inboard.

Offline Roy Johnson

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2023, 10:27:17 AM »
You don't have to tear the wing apart. Put a secondary transfer crank between the wing LE and the motor. You will just have one crank instead of two as shown in my pictures . It is just as i drew it. The push rod comes out of the wing , you have an intermediary crank that reduces the throw, nominally by 1/2. That give you full throttle movement with full BC movement. It is just like the pictures except everything is on the outboard side. The plane in the pics have the BC mounted inboard.

10-4

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2023, 06:56:34 PM »
I have always had MORE than enough throw from every 3-line setup I have ever used.  Sometimes I need to make a long throttle arm to get rid of the excess throw.  A SHORTER throttle arm might be your fix.

I have converted several 3-line planes to 2.4.  I always dig out the old 3-line bellcrank and put in a stout 2-line bellcrank with double shear mounting.  Navy Carrier pull testing is death to 3-line bellcranks and the best reason to convert to radio.

Not all 2.4 systems will bind to each other.  I have a really nice car system that I won.  It will only bind to its own receiver.  I am really bummed out. I expected to use the $3 receivers that I have on hand.  The specific receivers I would need cost as much as a whole new FlySky system.  So this system boils down to one model with its dedicated controller.

The pitcher is a "receiver" I put together from parts & material.  It works well enough.  It is much stronger than the Roberts and Brodak products that have failed me at times.  The Sturdi-Built 3-line was the strongest.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2023, 10:23:29 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2023, 10:27:27 PM »
I ran out of capacity on the last post.  The throttle arm comes out the top of the wing on that setup. I can safely jockey the gas pedal on that one.

See?  The axle of the throttle bellcrank goes through a stout tube in the  wing.  The RC steering arm gives plenty of options to get the throttle throw correct.
Paul Smith

Offline john vlna

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2023, 10:49:44 PM »
Paul
I don’t think with that type bc you have the same problem as a Roberts type. I have used that type on sport planes but for carrier i always preferred the Roberts type,
John

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2023, 10:06:42 AM »
Roy as I mentioned last Sunday there is an easy fix. I wrote the attached a long time ago when I was the NCS Hi-Lo newsletter editor.  The graphics have gone missing but I  have one glow plane left. This should give you the information you need for a throttle  transfer. If you can meke the picnic next week I'll bring the plane

Of course you will have to do this all on one side because of how you BC is mounted.

Got to love the wrap job on the line terminals... no disrespect, just caught my eye. n1

Offline bdt-m

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2023, 10:14:30 AM »
Never have had any issues with 3-line systems; enough throw, easy to setup, extremely reliable. I understand the attraction to 2.4, the added simplicity, and cost savings. I guess I am 'old school'... and see carrier as a 3-line event, somehow 2 lines lacks the carrier 'flavor' for me.

Good to have options.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Carrier Control question update and new question
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2023, 09:53:34 PM »
Well, they have old timer (nostalgia) events for those who favor the old school. 

I fly those and also the more modern 2.4 stuff. 

For a new guy, 2.4 is the way to go.  Three-line is a real challenger to somebody without a stash from the 60's.
Paul Smith

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