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Author Topic: Scoring  (Read 929 times)

Offline Bob Reeves

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Scoring
« on: August 27, 2009, 11:15:58 AM »
Dumb question... Rules say...

11.2. Low-Speed Points. Low-speed points shall be scored as 10 times the ratio of high speed to low speed (10 x high speed divided by low speed). The score shall be calculated to the nearest 1/10 point. Note: High speed divided by low speed is the same as low-speed flight time divided by high-speed flight time

What is the reason they just don't use the difference between high speed and low speed?

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 12:31:00 PM »
They did exatly that until the end of 1975 when a fruit basket rules change was pushed through.

Up until then, the fastest planes with a decent low speed won.  The guys who could not go fast got tired of getting beat and changed the whole game.

Now you just need a passible high speed and a near-zero hovering low to win. 

Pre-1975 there were so many entries you couldn't get in all your attempts in one day.  Now they have trouble getting enough to give away three prizes.
Paul Smith

Offline Dave Rolley

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 12:58:04 PM »
The previous scoring system was not just the difference between the high speed and the low speed.  It was 3X the difference to calculate the low speed points.

For the high and low speeds typically flown at that time, for a given high speed (say 100 mph) the scoring system disproportionately favored low speed.  The current scoring system actually balanced the scoring between the performance portions of the flight, again for the speed being achieved at the time.  Where the current scoring system disproportionately favors low speed is when the low speeds shifted from 90 - 120 seconds of the mid-1970s to the 180 - 240 seconds range we see today.

The scoring change did not happen in 1975.

BTW I was at the 1975 Nats in Lake Charles.  There were less that 10 entries in Profile Carrier.  I was also at the 1976 Nats in Dayton.  2 decks were required there to handle the entries.  That was the first time I saw a prop hanging flight used in Navy Carrier. (no 60 degree rule then).  Tow folks did it.  Dick Davis is the name that pops into my head.  But he lost the landing and didn't trophy.

All control line events are down on participant except stunt.  Maybe there is another reason. 

And the current low speed flight requires a lot of skill and practice.  Much more than puttering around the circle for a 90 second (20 MPH) low speed and hope you hit the deck.

Dave

Dave

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 01:29:31 PM »
The cataclysmic rules change was DEFINATELY effective January 1, 1976 because there were record-setting contests held immediately after New Years' to claim all the records that had been washed out.

The quitting by 90% of the active flyers may not have been immediate.  A few needed to attend a contest or two to realise that their equipment, while not illegal, had been rendered hopelessly uncompetitive.

This is old business, 33 years old now, but it is the answer to the question,
"why don't they just use the difference, not the ratio?"

Let's assume there are two models, with hi-lows of 90-20 and 80-10, the same difference, 70 MPH.

Under the "difference system", pre-1976, the faster models wins, 300 points to 290.

Under the current "slide & hover rules",  the slow plane wins 160 to 135.  In fact, a model that went only 70 high and 10 low (a difference of only 60 MPH) will score 140 points and still beat the 90-20 airplane.

------------------------------------------

The old system was more realistic because the goal of a carrier based fighter plane is to go as fast as possible and slow down enough to make the landing, not hover like a helicopter.

Paul Smith

Offline Lee Thiel

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 01:52:38 PM »
Thanks for the answer/answers.  Bob and I were talking about that this morning.
"The old system was more realistic because the goal of a carrier based fighter plane is to go as fast as possible and slow down enough to make the landing, not hover like a helicopter."
The above statement is probably why I am just building a carrier plane to have fun with, instead of competing as I did in the 60's. Yes, I realize that real planes don't fly on lines, but the sure don't hover.
Lee TGD
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 02:30:00 PM »
Thanks guys for clearing up the question.. Lee and I will probably be the only two carrier flyers around so we can pretty well do what we choose. Fun sounds good, if Lee and I ever do compete with each other, I'm for just using the difference.

Spent 4 years on a carrier in the 60's, never saw a fixed wing airplane hover  ;D

Offline Dave Rolley

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 02:50:48 PM »
Paul,

The fallacy in your example is simple.  When the current scoring system was created, a 120 second low speed time (15 mph) was a real achievement.  Most folks were thrilled to achieve 90 seconds (20 mph).  Without sliders, a 90 second low speed was generally not a "rock up to 20 degrees AOA and putter the circle" type of flight like a full size aircraft in minimum controllable slow flight.  It was often a saw tooth flight path with periods of dead idle and periods of near full power (for a ST C-35, for Profile).

There is a second fallacy in your scoring example.  80 mph was not a common profile high speed for that time.  That level of speed didn't become reasonable until the modified OS 40 to 36 conversion and K&B 5.8 engines became available and didn't become common until ball bearing engines were allowed (1978 or 1980?).  70 mph was not a common Class 1 or Class 2 speed in that time period.  So it would have been very unlikely that the performance example you used is a valid example of how the scoring system treated two competitors.  Those flight performances would not likely have been in the same class.  The differences in performance would have been much narrower within a class or the competitor wouldn't have been competitive on that day.

The current scoring system was created to balance the scoring.  The current flying performance levels are what have broken the balance.

Look, people quit an activity for a number of reasons.  I've watched folks drop an event not because of a rules change, but because someone 1500 miles away has a new killer engine.  It doesn't matter that the new engine is unreliable.  It doesn't matter that they will never, ever, actually see or hold the engine in their hand much less compete against that engine in the event.  The mere existence of the engine and that had been used in the event somewhere was sufficient for them to throw in the towel.

We had lots more folks participating in the hobby when they had the time to participate.  When the expense and effort required didn't hurt.  We had a lot more participation when we went flying with our friends.  We had a lot more participants when it was fun to go fly.  The rules revisions didn't change any of those fundamentals.  

You want to build pretty, build pretty and enjoy flying it.  You want a McCoy 60 Sterling Guardian, build it and enjoy flying it (I'll take mine with an OPS 60, please).  Don't like sliders?  Don't use them.  Don't like prop hanging? Don't do it.  Want 10% fuel? Use it.  Want 79% fuel? Tip the nitro can!

I have my Nats trophies in Carrier from the 70's and 80's.  My son and I have his, mine, and our Nats trophies in Racing and Speed from the 90's and 2000's.  Can you tell me which ones he/we/I won?  I can't.  So what is their value?  They trigger memories of good times together with each other and friends in a setting we enjoy.

BTW, we compete in F2C and have done so internationally.  The AMA rules are sane compared to some of the things you find in the FAI rules.  And the event is fun for us.

The scoring system change didn't kill Navy Carrier, line sliders didn't kill Navy Carrier, and the prop hanging slow flight didn't kill Navy Carrier.  What dropped Navy Carrier to its current participation level is people dropping out rather than accepting the challenge of the new environment or changing the environment to something more acceptable to them.  What dropped Navy Carrier to its current participation level is not having new folks coming into the event.  Folks like Gerry Deneau and Rusty Brown mentored me when I was new to Navy Carrier.  The folks I've mentored dropped out long ago.  But all of those folks dropped out for life reasons and may come back some day.  They didn't drop out over some petty disagreement over the rules.

Don't like the current event?  Run your own contest with your own rules.  If it is successful, I'll be glad to offer my congratulations.  If it isn't successful, you at least did something beside complain.

Dave

Offline Peter Mazur

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 03:08:25 PM »
Navy Carrier might be down a bit, but it isn't any worse than other control line events based on Nats entry. (Please be aware that there were quite a number of people at the Nats in Carrier this year who came and flew but did not manage to make official flights. They were incorrectly included as "no show" in the Nats News report official results.)  If I compare registration in the 1999 Nats and 2009 Nats in several control line categories, I find that Carrier had only 70% as many entries in 2009 as in 1999, while Stunt had 82%, Speed had 52%, Racing had 34%, and Combat had 25%. The only thing up was CL Scale, with 113%. So Carrier is less than we would like, but it could be a lot worse.
Pete

david smith

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 04:56:00 PM »
Thank You Dave!!!!!!!!

David


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